S.A.S.C.
Solo => SASC Events => Topic started by: Reijo on July 24, 2017, 07:08:14 AM
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1st practice this Wed. (July 26) - event insurance paid for and lot secured.
Notices have been sent to members last night for registration information (link) and this will be opened to the general public this afternoon.
Registration numbers are limited to ensure seat time. Be quick!
R
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you mean July 26th?
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you mean July 26th?
Oh, shoot! YEs!
Reijo
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Where's the link?
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Where's the link?
If you are a paid-up member of SASC, you should have received an email last night. Or actually are you a member of CSCC? I passed on info to Chris but maybe he has not passed it on yet?
Otherwise, I'll open it up for the general public later today.
R
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Got it now! It's been weeks since I checked my email. Second month with no home internet with work blocking gmail and no phone since yesterday makes checking email an occasional chore.
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Just an update; no information/email received from CSCC - I guess I should have bought the SASC membership instead (o well I'll know for next year). Hopefully its not closed before I get a chance to register!
I'll be available to help out with setup/teardown etc.
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Sent you an email, Nick or is PM better? ...
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Reijo, do you know what the format will be like for this? Full course, or separate elements? Run groups, or run when you want for testing?
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got the email thanks Reijo!
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You are welcome!
And, here's a courses map - course 1: Slaloms R Us. Course 2: Sweepers Creepers!
Note that there is nothing sacred about the designs and we can change them on the fly .... or even tie them together by crossing over at the top (west) to make one big course. Maybe at the end of the evening?
:)
Reijo
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Where's the link?
If you are a paid-up member of SASC, you should have received an email last night. Or actually are you a member of CSCC? I passed on info to Chris but maybe he has not passed it on yet?
Otherwise, I'll open it up for the general public later today.
R
Unfortunately we do not have a mailing list for CSCC members. I could send it out to everybody through MSR but I believe about 90% of the people who attend our events also attend yours and I'd just be spamming them. Can we just throw the link up on our forum?
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Actually I was contemplating just opening it up for everyone right away anyway. Some CSCC members have contacted me already and I gave them the link.
More than 1/2 full already.
If you know someone who wants to come, maybe contact them right away?
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I can't think of anybody who doesn't already know about this forum so I'd say open it up whenever you like!
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I think there are like 4 spots left ... but might open up a few more spots ... because I think we'll all get more runs than we want.
R
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You are welcome!
And, here's a courses map - course 1: Slaloms R Us. Course 2: Sweepers Creepers!
Note that there is nothing sacred about the designs and we can change them on the fly .... or even tie them together by crossing over at the top (west) to make one big course. Maybe at the end of the evening?
:)
Reijo
Nice, I have to skip this weeks' practice (taking my youngest camping) but am a very interested maybe for the second one, keep me posted on what time you'll be heading to the storage locker for the August practice as I can still come early to help with setup.
John
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39 signed up.
Did we say we're capping it at 40 I thought?
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I think there are like 4 spots left ... but might open up a few more spots ... because I think we'll all get more runs than we want.
R
Personally I'd like to keep attendance capped low (40) for the first one to see how an evening event goes, but that's just my $0.02
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I think there are like 4 spots left ... but might open up a few more spots ... because I think we'll all get more runs than we want.
R
Personally I'd like to keep attendance capped low (40) for the first one to see how an evening event goes, but that's just my $0.02
Yes, I mentioned 40-50 in my email to the executive. We are at 39 right now. There might be a drop or two as well.
R
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And, I keep forgetting.
We need someone to volunteer to help by picking up at least one set of timing equipment from Murray (in Woodbine/SW) and bring it to the Wed. evening practice and then back to Murray's place after the fact. I think Murray and Jo are around on-off during the day since he is retired. Lucky guy! :)
His MX-5 doesn't have room for two sets of equipment.
There is also the option of only doing timing on one course and not the other.
Reijo
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I guess I am a tad late registering as the event is sold out according to MS Reg. Might still go for a look see though
Bill.
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yeh i just registered and got wait listed. crazy.....
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I think doing one timed course and one non-timed course would be beneficial. Gives the hardcores a chance to work on setups and see if its working while the more casuals can work on the basics without worrying about timing. I see these events becoming very popular.
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I just realized that we can't run two timing systems anyway. The display boards run on the same frequency, and unlike Fort Macleod, we can't keep them out of each other's range.
So, a single timing system is all we can do, at least with respect to the displays.
I'll do a test fit tomorrow, but I believe I can fit the single system into the Miata.
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I guess I am a tad late registering as the event is sold out according to MS Reg. Might still go for a look see though
Bill.
Get on the wait list ... could be some drops.
Reijo
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I ended up on the waitlist as well.... I suppose I should have paid more attention to the forums, then i might have known the registration was going to fill up as fast as it did.
Question for anyone who may know: I put my co-worker on the waitlist for the event this morning as well, but registered him as a non-member. It says on motorsportreg that his credit card was charged, and that he was sucessfully registered for the event?? ???
Also, what is the official cap for this event?
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I ended up on the waitlist as well.... I suppose I should have paid more attention to the forums, then i might have known the registration was going to fill up as fast as it did.
Question for anyone who may know: I put my co-worker on the waitlist for the event this morning as well, but registered him as a non-member. It says on motorsportreg that his credit card was charged, and that he was sucessfully registered for the event?? ???
Also, what is the official cap for this event?
Cole and I "fixed" this situation this morning. Somehow he got in but I put him back on the waitlist.
There may be a couple of drops whom I know of so hang in there folks and we'll see what we can do.
ALSO. Does anyone want to use a G-circle for car set-up? There is the extra lot to the NE that we can also use for testing purposes and would be a good place for a big circle.
Reijo
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I ended up on the waitlist as well.... I suppose I should have paid more attention to the forums, then i might have known the registration was going to fill up as fast as it did.
Question for anyone who may know: I put my co-worker on the waitlist for the event this morning as well, but registered him as a non-member. It says on motorsportreg that his credit card was charged, and that he was sucessfully registered for the event?? ???
Also, what is the official cap for this event?
Cole and I "fixed" this situation this morning. Somehow he got in but I put him back on the waitlist.
There may be a couple of drops whom I know of so hang in there folks and we'll see what we can do.
ALSO. Does anyone want to use a G-circle for car set-up? There is the extra lot to the NE that we can also use for testing purposes and would be a good place for a big circle.
Reijo
Am I right in understanding that a g-circle would be good to find out optimal tire pressures? If so, then yes.
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I ended up on the waitlist as well.... I suppose I should have paid more attention to the forums, then i might have known the registration was going to fill up as fast as it did.
Question for anyone who may know: I put my co-worker on the waitlist for the event this morning as well, but registered him as a non-member. It says on motorsportreg that his credit card was charged, and that he was sucessfully registered for the event?? ???
Also, what is the official cap for this event?
Cole and I "fixed" this situation this morning. Somehow he got in but I put him back on the waitlist.
There may be a couple of drops whom I know of so hang in there folks and we'll see what we can do.
ALSO. Does anyone want to use a G-circle for car set-up? There is the extra lot to the NE that we can also use for testing purposes and would be a good place for a big circle.
Reijo
Am I right in understanding that a g-circle would be good to find out optimal tire pressures? If so, then yes.
Yes, it is. Setup 8-10 cones and you are good to go.
R
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I just realized that we can't run two timing systems anyway. The display boards run on the same frequency, and unlike Fort Macleod, we can't keep them out of each other's range.
So, a single timing system is all we can do, at least with respect to the displays.
I'll do a test fit tomorrow, but I believe I can fit the single system into the Miata.
In that case, we should put the timing on the south/Slaloms R US course. For the sweepers, you pretty much know when you lose time etc. In slaloms it is not quite so obvious how much time can be gained by doing slaloms properly, and I'd like everyone to get a "feel" for that.....and to get slaloms nailed down as much as possible. I have maintained for many years now that you cannot practice slaloms enough ... .and you will get slaloms in spades on the south course! :)
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Procedural Information for the evening:
FYI, We will be using two grids at the usual locations - A and B (or 1 and 2?).
For the initial part of the evening:
1. The south grid (closest to Airport Trail) will be running the south course (or slalom course).
2. The north grid will be running on the north course (closest to the storm water pond).
3. Each grid will have about 20 drivers (not necessarily cars. 2-driver cars in EACH grid will be at the front - we'll try and remember to put out green cones for them). I would recommend that 2-driver cars work different heats so your tires do not overheat! The runs will come fast and furious. Think about it .... 13 cars, 20 seconds apart. Almost don't bother getting out of your car between runs for the 1st sessions! I will look at limiting the no. of runs before worker change-over ... it will be happening very fast.
4. While you are running a particular course (north or south), you can leave your car in grid while you work (no moving back to the pits etc.).
5. WORK: we'll divide each group into 1/3's so that 1/3 of the group (about 6-7 people) will be working each equal portion of the heat. I'm thinking 10 min. work sessions and the entire heat will take about 30 min. or probably less (still doing some calcs...) ... still get a ton of runs ... maybe too many!
6. The worker change-overs will be done on the fly. Cars will continue to run. We will let you know when to get ready to head out. Once we have given the word or you have done a certain no. of runs (probably 4 I'm thinking now ... or if you work last heat, then you will do 8 runs), and if you have just completed a run, walk out and relieve a worker directly after your run.
Leave your car where it is!
Keep your eyes open and don't turn your back to the cars since we will be pumping them out like usual. Actually I'm thinking do 4 runs and then change over the shift of workers ... might be 10 minutes at most ... probably less. This is happening so fast I have to type fast here! :)
7. Since we have two groups of about 20 cars/people, you will be able to leave your car in grid the whole evening. Even on the full course, we will run from where we are parked - grid 1 or grid 2 will be running.
More refinement under way.
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Timing info:
I cannot run both displays at the venue, but the Farmtek system has a nice little console with an LCD readout of times. All we need is a marshal to read the times to each driver as they finish. So here is my proposal:
1. Main timing system with display is set up on the south (slalom) course. Perhaps moved to north (sweeper) course part way through the evening.
2. Farmtek system is reserved for a separate area (NE corner area?) for people to set up a simple element or two and get times. It is easy to change to a different set of elements and move the timing. To be honest, I expect this to be the most popular "course" of the evening.
I can fit all of this in my Miata (barely!), so no help needed for hauling the timing gear to/from the venue.
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Procedural Information for the evening:
3. Each grid will have about 20 drivers (not necessarily cars. 2-driver cars in EACH grid will be at the front - we'll try and remember to put out green cones for them). I would recommend that 2-driver cars work different heats so your tires do not overheat! The runs will come fast and furious. Think about it .... 13 cars, 20 seconds apart. Almost don't bother getting out of your car between runs for the 1st sessions! I will look at limiting the no. of runs before worker change-over ... it will be happening very fast.
I think a better way is to divide the working period into e.g 20-30 min session. If there are 40 of us with 2 courses, then we might just need 1/3 of the people working both courses. Everyone signs up for 2/3 sessions and run the rest of the time, doesn't matter which course. So one will have time to make changes, talk to co-drivers/instructor or a break.
So if we have 3 hours, with 1/3 of the people working, each of us can sign up for 3 20 minutes working session on the worker's sheets. As long as everyone works for 3 sessions, we should be good.
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Procedural Information for the evening:
3. Each grid will have about 20 drivers (not necessarily cars. 2-driver cars in EACH grid will be at the front - we'll try and remember to put out green cones for them). I would recommend that 2-driver cars work different heats so your tires do not overheat! The runs will come fast and furious. Think about it .... 13 cars, 20 seconds apart. Almost don't bother getting out of your car between runs for the 1st sessions! I will look at limiting the no. of runs before worker change-over ... it will be happening very fast.
I think a better way is to divide the working period into e.g 20-30 min session. If there are 40 of us with 2 courses, then we might just need 1/3 of the people working both courses. Everyone signs up for 2/3 sessions and run the rest of the time, doesn't matter which course. So one will have time to make changes, talk to co-drivers/instructor or a break.
So if we have 3 hours, with 1/3 of the people working, each of us can sign up for 3 20 minutes working session on the worker's sheets. As long as everyone works for 3 sessions, we should be good.
You have a point about the time between runs.
Having said that, if almost everyone lines up on one course, then that changes everything again. I'm trying to figure out what that means or if it is a problem. Maybe people will go in a line-up to a certain degree and then just go to the other "free" course rather than wait?
But, then again, if someone is having trouble with one course, they just might want to spend more runs there.
Hmmm.....maybe it could work? I'm open to suggestion and better ways to do things.
R
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do we need to have numbers for this event?
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I'll be coming straight from work, be there like 4.30 if you need help setting up.
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do we need to have numbers for this event?
No numbers needed -- nobody is entering your number into the computer.
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do we need to have numbers for this event?
No numbers needed -- nobody is entering your number into the computer.
We will build a full course for the last session (join the two courses plus a few modifications - less than 15 minutes to do I am guessing). Do we want to have recorded times for that?
You will have 2 or 3 runs on the big course depending on how the event progresses ... how fast we are at change-overs/working and such.
R
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We will build a full course for the last session (join the two courses plus a few modifications - less than 15 minutes to do I am guessing). Do we want to have recorded times for that?
It's getting a bit late for that. We would need to have people check in to verify that their numbers and class are correct, and we would also need to have timing people. Not impossible, but a fair amount of hassle for the last minute.
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We will build a full course for the last session (join the two courses plus a few modifications - less than 15 minutes to do I am guessing). Do we want to have recorded times for that?
It's getting a bit late for that. We would need to have people check in to verify that their numbers and class are correct, and we would also need to have timing people. Not impossible, but a fair amount of hassle for the last minute.
The reason I asked was because there was a question about numbers and whether we would need them. For myself I'm not concerned either way.
As for proper classing etc. We don't need to do that since there are no points at stake etc. ... just a matter of recording times for individual benefit so they can see any advancement they have got. The numbers would help to identify cars/people for timing.
And, yes, we would need timing people then ... but there is only one course, and two heats running (about 40 cars, 20 each heat).
R
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I'll load the MSR report onto the laptop tomorrow, and if people have car numbers, then we can enter them.
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I'll load the MSR report onto the laptop tomorrow, and if people have car numbers, then we can enter them.
OK - fair enough. If someone does not have numbers then they get an "unnumbered" run? Or does it just disappear? Just curious how the software handles that.
Thanks!
R
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No site visits or other meetings yet for today. Therefore, I'll be heading over to YYC/Budget a bit earlier to pick up the gate key and to deliver a check for the rental ... probably somewhere around 3-3:30 ...
So I'll pick up some cones along the way and toss them in the lot (if we are not there and no one else has arrived, I'll leave the gate unlocked (but shut) while we pick up cones at the storage).
So check the gate. If you see cones, I'll also leave a course map or two under the cones so you can start setting them up.....and it should be a matter of minutes before we are back.
I'll update progress here as we go ... or if you have my cell, contact me via text there.
Reijo
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Barring any issues: Pick up cones at 4 pm today at 90 Country Hills Landing NW - Public Storage. Setup thereafter at the YYC lot.
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I'll load the MSR report onto the laptop tomorrow, and if people have car numbers, then we can enter them.
OK - fair enough. If someone does not have numbers then they get an "unnumbered" run? Or does it just disappear? Just curious how the software handles that.
The runs don't show up in the scores at all.
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OK - thanks.
R
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Procedural Information for the evening:
3. Each grid will have about 20 drivers (not necessarily cars. 2-driver cars in EACH grid will be at the front - we'll try and remember to put out green cones for them). I would recommend that 2-driver cars work different heats so your tires do not overheat! The runs will come fast and furious. Think about it .... 13 cars, 20 seconds apart. Almost don't bother getting out of your car between runs for the 1st sessions! I will look at limiting the no. of runs before worker change-over ... it will be happening very fast.
I think a better way is to divide the working period into e.g 20-30 min session. If there are 40 of us with 2 courses, then we might just need 1/3 of the people working both courses. Everyone signs up for 2/3 sessions and run the rest of the time, doesn't matter which course. So one will have time to make changes, talk to co-drivers/instructor or a break.
So if we have 3 hours, with 1/3 of the people working, each of us can sign up for 3 20 minutes working session on the worker's sheets. As long as everyone works for 3 sessions, we should be good.
You have a point about the time between runs.
Having said that, if almost everyone lines up on one course, then that changes everything again. I'm trying to figure out what that means or if it is a problem. Maybe people will go in a line-up to a certain degree and then just go to the other "free" course rather than wait?
But, then again, if someone is having trouble with one course, they just might want to spend more runs there.
Hmmm.....maybe it could work? I'm open to suggestion and better ways to do things.
R
Having slept on this, I think this will work. As anything it is not perfect but I think it is worth a shot - thanks for the idea, Ambrose!
Everyone will still grid in 2 grids (plus the NE/side lot).
For the first part of the evening we will split into 3 heats (for work purposes only - you will either run or work and I will have a sign-up sheet for work - first come, first served). You will be able to sign up to work either the 1st, 2nd or 3rd 30 min. heat.
Note that you can go to the side lot at any time other than your heat that you have to work. Just always come back to your own grid spot like normal.
See the attached excel spreadsheet which may help explain how it works. ONLY the shaded boxes are the eligible work positions. We also have extra help from people who are not running to fill some spots which are not included here.
Hopefully that all makes sense! :)
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Driver's meeting at 5:30 pm ... as per the schedule on the excel spreadsheet. You will have to do course walks before that or go "cold turkey" running the course. Hmm....that can be a good exercise too. :P
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Before I forget, I printed the course maps yesterday and then decided to make some minor changes to the courses (simplified ... less cones to pick up due to few workers as per Murray's suggestion - thanks Murray!). Basically I took out some slalom cones and I think it made the slalom course more interesting with acceleration/braking zones added.
So you will have to correct the maps on your own. I will have a big 11x17 map(s) posted/taped on my truck cap which will be correct since I printed them later.
R
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PARKING AND GRID WILL WORK LIKE THIS.
You may use the pit area/row to the north to drop off extra "stuff" or leave the stuff in grid.
Your grid spot will remain yours for the entire evening ... no moving needed.
Two driver cars at the front of each row at the green cones like normal.
See the attached scan.
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At the lot now....dropping off 1st cones, waivers, maps, etc.
Look for cones at the grid positions for where to park.
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Had a ton of fun yesterday Reijo, thank you for setting this up. Did you end up finding your keys to the storage locker?
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Full Lap - 35.1 sec run (fastest was 34.5)
https://youtu.be/4LOb8_RTie0
Slalom - 28.x sec
https://youtu.be/l2_1IqosB74
Sweeper Course - 36.1 sec
https://youtu.be/wqfds-_A20s
My telemetry typically is 1-2 seconds off the timing gear as my time starts when the car starts moving not when I cross the beam.
Lots of fun, and I really enjoyed the sweeper course.
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Had a ton of fun yesterday Reijo, thank you for setting this up. Did you end up finding your keys to the storage locker?
You're welcome!
Yes, found the keys ... had left them in the glove box ... don't know why I didn't see them in there ... just tired and hungry by that time I think ... had not eaten all day ... ugh. We made one trip to the storage but by the time we got there the second time, we could not get in ... they shut off the gate access at 10 pm ... we were there at 10:23 according to their clock. I also could not drop off the gate key. So I went to the local pub to de-stress ... have a beer and a meal ... good thing to do! :)
So I'll have to run over to the storage later today to drop off the stuff in the truck and the gate key ... oh well. Get me out of the home anyway I guess.
R
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PAX scores for those that had (usable) numbers on their cars:
I know that some of the numbers did not match that driver names and/or cars, but hey, you get what you paid for :)
Overall ranking by PAX:
Rank Car# Class Driver Car Raw Time PAX # PAX Time Score
1 192 AS Cam W 2004 Chevrolet Corve 29.478 0.819 24.142 100.000
2 93 DS Quentin O 2015 Scion FRS 31.894 0.801 25.547 94.502
3 186 STF Kyle H 2017 Honda Civic Typ 32.005 0.800 25.604 94.292
4 5 CS Murray P 2017 Mazda MX-5 31.790 0.810 25.750 93.758
5 43 BS Jared C 2016 Ford Focus RS 31.841 0.813 25.887 93.262
6 312 ES Tom G 2004 Mazda Miata 32.939 0.794 26.154 92.310
7 202 SSP Paul T 2012 Porsche 911 Tur 30.555 0.862 26.338 91.663
8 215 STU Myron N 2017 Volkswagen Golf 31.835 0.831 26.455 91.259
9 420 STX Allen X 2013 Scion Frs 32.327 0.822 26.573 90.854
10 81 SM Joseph G 2013 Scion FRS 30.918 0.861 26.620 90.692
11 42 BS Ryan C 2006 Porsche Cayman 33.811 0.813 27.488 87.828
12 148 SM Zachary B 2015 Subaru BRZ 32.438 0.861 27.929 86.442
13 181 DS Paul M 2013 Subaru BRZ 34.934 0.801 27.982 86.278
14 969 HS William D 1993 Nissan 240sx 35.872 0.786 28.195 85.626
15 205 SM Tara T 1994 Toyota Celica G 33.127 0.861 28.522 84.644
16 203 HS Marco L 1996 Toyota Tercel 36.930 0.786 29.027 83.173
17 111 AS Philip L 2004 Subaru WRX Wago 36.211 0.819 29.657 81.406
18 924 HS Robert K 2003 Honda civic 38.250 0.786 30.065 80.302
19 403 DS George U 2002 Subaru WRX 38.781 0.801 31.064 77.720
20 12 STU Clara L 2005 BMW M3 38.325 0.831 31.848 75.805
21 77 DS Klaus B 2016 Subaru WRX 42.807 0.801 34.288 70.410
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What a fun event!
Thanks for setting it up. Would love to do more like these in the future, I think we'll get the format and setup dialed in.
Ryan had the MRS almost entirely disassembled by the time I got home - that throwout bearing was pooched!
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What a fun event!
Thanks for setting it up. Would love to do more like these in the future, I think we'll get the format and setup dialed in.
Ryan had the MRS almost entirely disassembled by the time I got home - that throwout bearing was pooched!
Glad you enjoyed it! A shame about the throw-out bearing but sounds like Ryan has it under control so that is good ... expendable item/regular maintenance.
We have the Wed. Aug. 9th practice essentially setup already - insurance in place and lot secured/paid for. So look for that to open up soon - end of this week I guess....should be pay day for the monthly people July 31 I'm guessing ... so maybe that would be a better date to open it up? Anyway, it's a matter of a few days.
Reijo
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Anyway, I'm curious (thanks for the comments already) about if participants found the practice event format and courses, etc. useful.
My intent was to provide some "basic training" in some commonly seen elements in solos but still with a few challenging elements to keep you entertained and looking ahead (always important, of course).
I also had some suggestions for practice days along the way however some of them were too late to be able to incorporate into the evening (e.g. maps were already made etc.). There are also some other ideas I have also have had for the future (some similar to other's suggestions etc.).
What I'm essentially thinking of is taking a team or sports perspective on things.
Like martial arts, wrestling, track and field etc. there are some basic exercises that are always a part of a work-out.
Yes, boring, I know.
Repetitious as well but to really master something (thinking slaloms in particular), you have to practice it and practice it some more until it becomes second nature to you....until you start to work on the really fine/infintisimal details of such elements. That is when the "magic" begins to happen I think.
I believe Bruce Lee once upon a time said something like (paraphrasing here a bit ... been a while): "I do not fear a man who knows a 1000 punches/moves, but a man who has done a 1000 punches". I have seen that type of thing in other athletes as well ... for instance some wrestlers were noted to be very good at certain techniques or moves and they were "able to stick it" as we used to say. Sometimes it was 1 or 2 signature moves, but very few could stop them even though they knew what was coming! It was such that some made it to the top national championship levels with those moves. Remarkable!
Anyway, so it is a similar type of thing that I would like to try here locally. We are already a very good club with a number of national and international level competitors. However, I believe we, as a whole, can be even faster, more precise and tuned in, if you will, by taking a team type of approach and using some of those training techniques that have been proven to work in other sports.
Why not have practices? Why not have training camps? Why not have training sessions/seminars on the various theories of what it takes to go fast? Why not have industry experts/drivers come in and speak to us ... to train us?
SoloPro Schools are sort of like this: Getting SCCA Championship level instructors to fly in and train us ... kind of like a mini-camp, if you will. But I think they are really barely scratching the surface compared to what I have seen in other sports.
You might say that autox has remained a very, very grassroots motorsport that is practiced locally and with very little real training. Locals would have their early season schools for novices and that was about it. There was nothing or very little more advanced beyond that. I know in Vancouver-area they developed the Velocity Schools which have been successful but, really, from what I gather, they are just more advanced local schools (there are different levels) run by volunteers from the club.
Evolution Schools was started by Jim McKamie back in the late 80's which put autox schools into a more professional form for the first time which had mixed results (anything new really) and limited acceptance. Of course he has long ago sold that and they have continued to operate with different types of events but the teaching hasn't really changed (I have taken most of the schools multiple times myself) and then SoloPro, of course, came out of that with new materials, courses and more flexibility. I think there is more acceptance of such schools these days and they are continent-wide as you probably know.
But, nevertheless, it is not hard to see that there could be more. More attention to detail. More information. More practice. More development of the "program" for advancing people beyond the beginner, occasional autoxer or weekend warrior levels.
I know SoloPro has continued to develop beyond the original level continuously and we have experimented with various course designs over the years since they started in 2008-2009. And that is good and all. However as I mentioned above there is certainly much more that can be done.
Anyway, I'm starting to ramble ... something I've been thinking of for over 10 years now. Maybe it is high time to do something, eh? ;)
R
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Thanks Reijo,
I'm not sure what my expectation was, but I found the night pretty fast paced. I would have appreciated some more time to consult with other drivers, maybe swap cars and do some ride alongs.
I think for that to happen, we'd need some more time, or smaller numbers.
I got seven runs on the practice courses, which I took entirely on the non-slalom course. I was playing with lines on two really tight pinches on that course and trying to learn something. Not sure I did, given inconsistency in my driving elsewhere. I would have liked a chance to see it riding passenger in someone else's car (one or two people in particular) but didn't get a chance to do that.
I still had fun, and did at least really get some good practice on 2 to 1 downshifting. :)
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Overall I found the night to be very useful. I stuck with one course during the first session, as I felt drilling slaloms over and over would help me more than mixing it up.
I wonder if things would smooth out if we went with a self-grid approach, just line up when you want to eliminate downtime for those trying to dial in specific things on the car or the driver. There were a few times we had an empty course when I was working the slalom that may have been eliminated with more flexible gridding.
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Reijo, thank you for setting this up (and Aug 9). I personally find it useful to be able to do a repeatable test/practice on both driving and car setup. I think for us in the living in the north with a short driving season that's a fast track way to get our car and our driving to improve.
Here my take on the test and tune:
+ The 2 courses with different elements were great! It's great for target both driving and car setup independently. I suppose if we takeout the crossover, we can put more car thru. (But the course wasn't that long anyway..however, the starter need to be on their toe to release the next car. see below )
+ course was simple enough cone picking was minimal.
- I was a bit disappointed with the numbers of runs that I could get out of the hour. In total, I was only able to get 6 runs out of an hour.
I was only able to test 3 setup with 1 runs on each course. I could tell the difference between my settings but there weren't enough runs to make a meaningful conclusion if the changes were any good, as I didn't have the time/run to get consistent with the setup. :P
3 runs probably do not give you a driving consistency for the course to even start trying to make changes to one's driving (unless you're Cam/Ryan/Reijo ;D) Personally that didn't provide the true benefit of a test and tune.
e.g. We had a few TnT at GreyEgale before and I was tired of running as we did at least 20 runs each for the evening. That's when one can really "try things out" and see the results.
Maybe we need to see if the change over was the culprit. As each course was only ~25-30 secs. With 2 courses, 20 cars ... technically you can put thru all 20 cars per 5 mins. (even without overlap) So each one of us should at least get 12 runs per hour. We need to find a way to do/keep track of change over.
Suggestions:
With 20/30 cars with 2 courses - I suggest we don't even run a grid. Just line up. If you need to work on your car, then pull it off the line back to the pit and work on it. (Two drivers cars - just line up, swap drivers)
Or 1 course with less entries?
This will at least keep the starter busy. On the slalom course, you can put thru even more cars per minute. :)
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First car didn't run until 6:30. For a "speedier" evening, I would suggest:
1. Smaller, simpler courses to allow much faster setup with fewer cones.
2. No course walks. Just run the course(s) blind for your first run
3. No crossover on any course to allow multiple cars on course at once.
Changeovers and grid were definitely a holdup. Perhaps we should try what other clubs do: You take some runs (3?), park your car, and go out to marshal at station #1. Marshal at station #1 moves to station #2. And so on, until marshal at last station goes back to take some runs.
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if you look at the slalom (28-31 second course) running cars every 15 seconds if you had 12 cars queued up there for 30 minutes you should in theory be able to give most people 10 runs. Unrealistic though, and more likely is 7-8.
if you had 12 cars on the sweeper course with the overlap (31-38 second course) running cars 30 sec apart because of the overlap, in 30 minutes should get 5 runs in 30 min.
I was proposing earlier when registering folks that your work group would dictate your run group. do 30 min on slalom, 30 min on sweeper, 30 min on work.
Based on the above in the hour of seat time you would get 8-10 runs on slalom and 5ish runs on sweeper. 13-15 runs maximum in the 1 hour TNT + 3 runs in the race session.
This would make the queuing more simple to maintain as well as you could make sure even numbers were going to each course through the evening and just every 30 minutes you rotate to the next station/track. I guess this distracts from those who wanted to focus on certain aspects though.
The alternative is the final track was 30-40 seconds but we were steadily running cars through it ever 20 seconds. If we had run two run groups on the one big track for the whole night. say 90 minutes and 90 minutes then in theory 20 cars running 20 seconds apart for 90 minutes. means you're pumping all cars through every ~7minutes with I guess 5 minutes between runs. Enough to make some adjustments. everyone gets 10-13 runs in 90 minutes.
I'm not sure how at 40 cars you give people more seat time than that. For what its worth between riding with folks and driving I'm pretty sure I got in close to 15 runs driving and 2 or 3 ride alongs. I was happy with it.
TLDR version: Last nights format but with specific run groups would give you up to 18 runs total across all course setups.
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Thanks for all the work required to have yesterday's event running. It was a fun night!
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Thanks for all the work required to have yesterday's event running. It was a fun night!
You're welcome! Also thanks to you and all the others, Brock, Tara, Cam, George, Paul, Murray (sorry if I missed anyone here!), etc. who helped before and after the event bringing cones/equipment to and from the venue. It was a long day for some of us and your effort was appreciated.
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Just one more comment: Anyone wanting more down time could have skipped their run at any time - no problem since it is not an official timed event. There is no issue with skipping runs!
With a grid like this the gap if you skipped a run was about 10 minutes or less. Something to consider.
R
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Lots of good comments here - thanks!
Just as a note for you all to consider:
I thought we might have had more runs than we did and the biggest factors were people lining up at the slalom course instead of the sweeper course resulting in no one at the sweeper course a number of times. Maybe having a choice wasn't so good?
The BIGGEST factor in how many runs you get is how fast (how small an interval) you send out cars. Therefore the starter HAS to be sending them out at 20 sec. (or less) intervals. This requires a certain level of expertise, help, and consistency for the starter. There also have to be cars present to start. This is one of the issues we were dealing with in grid. It was a bit of an adjustment with 2 courses going and only one grid supplying the cars! The cars had to go out very, very quickly ... plus tell drivers that there was a line up of so many cars on the slalom course and that they might consider going to the sweeper course instead.....or something like that. But the grid people did a great job and adjusted as we went so that things were flowing pretty well toward the end of the first 3 heats. It will only get better.
Now having said that, even with the limited cars on-course and around 42 competitors (2/3 in grid), some cars were coming in (2-driver cars) and then heading out without stopping! In other words that was about as many as you could physically send out with such a "small" group! Hence, it might be an idea to actually allow more people in to allow some time between runs for adjustments, water tires, etc. etc.! Think about that for a moment or two. :)
Maybe a month and a half ago I did a calculation and discovered in order to have a 5 minute gap between runs for 2-driver cars, we needed to have an absolute minimum of 27 competitors in a heat, sending them out 20 sec. apart! That is why I suggested for some 2-driver cars that they might consider separating into 2 heats just to get a break between runs.
Something else I could have done is to have 2 (almost - they would never be identical twins) identical slalom courses and that way there is no cross-over.
I'll get back to other comments and plans later on ... enough for now ... have other stuff to do.
R
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"Maybe a month and a half ago I did a calculation and discovered in order to have a 5 minute gap between runs for 2-driver cars, we needed to have an absolute minimum of 27 competitors in a heat, sending them out 20 sec. apart! That is why I suggested for some 2-driver cars that they might consider separating into 2 heats just to get a break between runs."
In all honesty, I would ignore the dual driver car. It's not a competition. If they would like to keep the tires cool, they could just pull out for a few minutes and get back in line. (moving grid) Simplify the logistics.
You'll also save 2 guys doing the grid. If everyone like to run the slalom course, so be it. And you will always have cars to send out.
JCS - I don't know how you could get 15runs with 2-3 ride along? I was sitting at the grid the whole time, and no lineup when I pull up to the course, and I could only barely got 6. ::)
Maybe the grid guys really like you! LoL
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I did hear more than a few comments about the disparity in runs available. Not sure how/why this happened, but we should look into the issue.
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I did hear more than a few comments about the disparity in runs available. Not sure how/why this happened, but we should look into the issue.
The early group did not run as efficiently as the latter ones. We were not sending up cars fast enough and that is one of the reasons I spent more time in the grid than anywhere else getting our people organized and sending the cars quicker. Grid is actually a very difficult job and in this case with 2 courses running at the same time, it meant cars had to be sent roughly twice as fast as so it was a little bit of an adjustment period for the grid people to get that figured out. That, of course, is no fault of their's but rather because it was a unique event and hence we needed a unique way of running things in grid. In a nutshell that explains the situation ... of course, it was a bit more complicated than that ... as I said, grid is a tricky and pretty hectic job. The drivers also had to adjust to the quickness of getting out ... and the starters too.
There were a couple of other items such as people just driving back into the line without going back to grid like they were supposed to ... We just need to herd the cats. ;) LOL
R
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Ambrose and some others mentioned about just making big lines of cars going into the start area.
That is going back to the 1980's and that is absolutely a non-starter for me. Forget it guys.
The reasons: We need proper procedures. If we get some CM cars in the future, they can't be idling in the pits. In fact our FP car will eventually have a smaller radiator and the same thing is true. And what about inching forward as if in a traffic jam with a racing clutch? No thanks! Also what about where are you going to keep your water bottle, helmet, numbers, tire pressure gage and whatever else you need to do between runs? If you don't have a set position, none of the above is going to be possible or easily anyway.
If you are running a completely stock car and aren't watering the tires or anything else.....sure that makes sense. But that is not the case for everyone.
Also, there were comments about talking with other competitors, changing cars etc. How is that going to be possible if the line is creeping forward every 20 seconds?
So, no go. Let's not regress back to the '80's ... or do you want to bring back the useless tight courses too with gates that you can hardly fit through with a bigger car etc.? ... or was that back to the future? hahaha
R
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JCS - I don't know how you could get 15runs with 2-3 ride along? I was sitting at the grid the whole time, and no lineup when I pull up to the course, and I could only barely got 6. ::)
Maybe the grid guys really like you! LoL
Maybe. I dunno I had 6 runs on the sweeper and 3 runs on the slalom in videos plus the 3 race runs. And I ran that FRS I think twice on slalom and once on sweeper. So whats that = 9 + 3 + 3 = 15 runs.
I had a ride along with Brock, maybe I only had one ride along:)
It doesn't change what I was really trying to explain above which is the math does work to get 15 runs if you had run it as three run groups with 30 min on each course + work.
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Thanks again to Reijo, and everyone who stepped forward towards making this event happen! The new format was a little strange to get used to (and I had to explain the format to a first-timer at the same time), but for the most part I feel that, from a participants standpoint, it went quite well... especially considering the limited timeframe we had available to us.
From my experience, I have a couple things to suggest to make the things run a little more smoothly:
- Set a regimented schedule for the 3 heats in the first schedule, or provide radios to course marshalls to announce when the shifts change. I found that when we were marshaling deep in the course, we had no idea when our work shift was ending
- Provide sticky notes of different colours when people register to designate which group people are running in for the second session (with the long course), and apply them to the inside of their windshield? that way it might make it a little easier for the grid marshalls to know which cars are running in that heat, and chase down the owners if they are not there.
Just a couple of ideas :)
Thanks again!
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I could live without the long course entirely and just stick with the short courses for the evening.
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Point of interest about the Farmtek system -- it was at the absolute limit of its range that evening. I have Yagi antennae on order, but they won't be here in time for the next event. So, the course designer needs to keep in mind how far the start and finish are from the control unit in order to make it work. Also, please add "timing" to the worker list; I had to work for 2 out of the 3 heats because nobody signed up to replace me.
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Point of interest about the Farmtek system -- it was at the absolute limit of its range that evening. I have Yagi antennae on order, but they won't be here in time for the next event. So, the course designer needs to keep in mind how far the start and finish are from the control unit in order to make it work. Also, please add "timing" to the worker list; I had to work for 2 out of the 3 heats because nobody signed up to replace me.
Yes, I noticed a few key positions were missing and I filled in temporarily as needed. I think there is a case to be made for bumping the registration to 60 so that we have enough workers and cars running for 2 heats (remember the min. 30 per heat we discussed earlier in the year). The people will still get the roughly the same no. of runs we got last night. I think I know why LA region limited their entries to 60 at their practices now ... because less than that they would have needed more workers.
Also next event I will likely be entered and running so I won't be around to fill in other positions as needed or even to see it for that matter.
A simpler course would also speed up setup (so we could get started on-time. I did not do a proper course walk even ... and looked at the course from the truck as we drove it slowly in order to speed things up in setup) as well as a bit more help setting up the course.
The course on the side lot? No one had time for that.
Maybe a single but more comprehensive course for the evening is best - less to learn, still lots of repetitions, less to set up ... I'll think of what to do for Wed. Aug. 9 ... have some ideas already.
R
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Hmmmm....or one really short/test course and longer more general course. hmmm.....this could work.
Farmtech system on the small interior course ... maybe only go down 1/2 length of the lot ... and on the inside....that way the start and finish are close as you mentioned, Murray.
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Sorry I arrived late. I wasn't sure with work I'd be able to make it.
First time running the start position. Glad I could make it out to help out where needed.
One thing I did notice was there was a couple cars without the tech sticker. Are we requireing the sticker for practices as well?
I should be able to make the next one to help where needed. ( busy time for boats so I never know my hours)
Thoughts on cars running, I did notice a few times the start was empty but seemed to be real smooth overall.
Thanks to all that made it out but a massive thanks for anyone who worked the slamon course section for all the running you did. That's so appreciated!!!! You guys sure had to work hard.