S.A.S.C.
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Terry Johns on August 28, 2017, 10:40:32 AM
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Found it very interesting yesterday regarding Pax. On the long fast course the Caterham is right up there, just goes to show it should not run in D Mod. The M3 appears to have a real advantage, one wonders how long is will stay in F Street.
Thinking about changing cars, although the NC Miata is a great car, its now out classed my the new ND, one wonders if the NC will go down into D Street as did the FRS.
For me the M3 is looking pretty tempting
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Which M3?
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v8
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So, E90/92/93 from 2007 - 2013. Decent sized window.
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I'm hoping a 15-17 mustang gt can compete with that damn m3 next year! The street classes have such a variety of performance between the cars in their classes and I personally feel that the newer M3, the new camaro and new mustang don't really fit in with the other FS cars. But thats just because my 05 mustang is out dated in every way to compete with the 2011+. Unless you are like Cam it seems like you have to have the latest and greatest models to have a chance. I fully understand the driver has a lot to do with it but it definitely seems to help having a car that is at the top of its class. That 2011 M3 seems to have such a good balance of power and handling. Such a beautiful car appearance wise as well. If I would allow myself to get a European car it would be the one. I see the 2017 camaro ss 1le with mag suspension(like the new covettes i believe) is up in AS. I imagine the 2018 mustang gt with the shelby gt350 suspension will be in AS as well. I feel I did pretty good in my 05 last year but I feel like a newer one will give me the edge I need to maybe(big maybe) scare Cam and be at the top like Richard has done this year in his M3. Only time will tell. Terry you should definitely give the v8 M3 a try if your thinking of switching cars! Might like the faster courses better!
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1000% agree mods are not your friend if you care about PAX. Those v8 M3s are sure nice, exquisite engine for the money but somewhat known to go boom.
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I think those of us with a few grey hairs, (even my grey hairs have gone) have all been down the mod road, only to realise that most modded cars are horrid daily drivers, dont get me wrong I love quick cars, before moving hear to Canada had a 390 HP Integrale, incredible piece of kit on the track, on the road it was a f....ing nightmare.
Coming from a Racing background, FF, F3 and Touring Cars I love high speed tracks, and Sundays Course thanks to Reijo was BRILLIANT. We marshalled at the very far end of the course, and without doubt I was giving up 2 seconds in acceleration in my 100 plus HP Miata. The problem with the very fast track is the supper powerful cars make up more time in the quick bits than they loose in the slow bits, saying that I love the fast courses, I just new when I looked at the course map that this event was going to be dominated by high HP cars or Caterhams, but it was still a GREAT weekend.
F Street with with 400 HP, yes I like the sound of that, there's a very good reason that Richard is at the top of the time sheets, he's clearly a competent driver with a very competent car with a great PAX
I'm off to Edmonton tomorrow to test drive a 2016 M3, watch this space.
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So, E90/92/93 from 2007 - 2013. Decent sized window.
The window's narrower than that. The M3 to have is the ZCP Competition Package, which had wider wheels and a lower suspension. It was only available from 2011 onwards. Also, while the sedan's weight is within a rounding error of the coupe's, the convertible is 400 lbs. heavier.
So basically, if you want to have a cutting-edge M3, you needs a 2011+ hardtop with the ZCP option.
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FYI - the ZCP sedan only came with the package in 1 year (2011).
In 2011, there were only 2170 sedans produced for the NA market and with those only 1220 have ZCP. Of these only 10% are manual.
As far as the coupe there were roughly 8299 produced after 2009 (they didnt go into details on year by year production unlike the sedans). If you were assume that the ZCP option take rate was just over 50% (similar to the sedan), you'd be looking at roughly 4500 coupes from 2011-2013. If you want manual, only 30% of the coupes were made in manual so you're looking at ~1350 manual coupes with the correct option package in all of North America.
Personally, the coupe is the way to go. The sedan although it weighs similarly for the most part comes with a sunroof standard and a steel roof. The couple 9/10 times comes with the Carbon Fiber Roof so you're saving some weight up high. (as an ex-M3 owner... I sorely miss my old car haha)
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Sounds like a unicorn and one that will get buried in a tougher class if it does too well.
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Sounds like a unicorn and one that will get buried in a tougher class if it does too well.
I think your quite right, that's one of my concerns.
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FYI - the ZCP sedan only came with the package in 1 year (2011).
In 2011, there were only 2170 sedans produced for the NA market and with those only 1220 have ZCP. Of these only 10% are manual.
As far as the coupe there were roughly 8299 produced after 2009 (they didnt go into details on year by year production unlike the sedans). If you were assume that the ZCP option take rate was just over 50% (similar to the sedan), you'd be looking at roughly 4500 coupes from 2011-2013. If you want manual, only 30% of the coupes were made in manual so you're looking at ~1350 manual coupes with the correct option package in all of North America.
Personally, the coupe is the way to go. The sedan although it weighs similarly for the most part comes with a sunroof standard and a steel roof. The couple 9/10 times comes with the Carbon Fiber Roof so you're saving some weight up high. (as an ex-M3 owner... I sorely miss my old car haha)
Thanks Chris. Its only the Coupe Im interested in. The sun roof is the big problem in the sedan, I cant sit in it with a helmet on.
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F-Street: M3 (E46 & E90/E92/E93 chassis) (2000-13)
M5 (1988-93, 2000-10)
A-Street: BMW
M3 & M4 (F80/F82) (2015-17)
Is there no 2014 M3?
Anyway, FS seems to be a toss-up between the Camaro SS, Mustang GT and the BMW M3 mentioned above with a slight advantage to the Camaro these days from what I can tell watching results on SCCA Tours and such. They are all similar weight, independent suspension and power ... and I read somewhere a bit course-dependent for the BMW.
How the newer M3's are doing in AS I don't know ... haven't heard much.
Most in AS seem to be driving Corvettes - Z06's and C6's (Mark Daddio is a key one) with the occasional CRS2000, Boxster/Cayman and whatnot thrown in.
Reijo
R
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Looked up some specs on the 2014 M3 (it exists):
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2014-bmw-m3-and-2014-m4-coupe-specs-revealed.html
Interesting that once they dropped the V-8 of 2013, they went to the in-line 6 with an extra 10 hp.....but the biggest thing is the weight drop! From around 3,700 lbs to 3,307 lbs (lightest one) is major and likely why the new car is in AS. Notably, 0-60 mph in 4.0 sec. ... pretty quick!
So, I think the newest Camaros and Mustangs are slightly lighter than the V-8 BMW ... interesting. But some of them have also moved up into AS and BS depending on the trim level ...
Amazing how complex the rules can be even in Street classes. :)
R
R
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One thing to mention... the DCT may be the way to go... you'll get a better launch for sure and you dont have to worry about shifting.
Sure it takes the fun out of the whole experience (imho) but if you're looking for "the car to have" i would argue that the DCT would be a better choice over the manual. Plus, you have more selection too!
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From what I've gathered the E92 M3 ZCP is still competitive in FS but the top dog is the '17 Camaro SS. I doubt it gets reclassed separately from the '17+ Camaro SS/'16 1LE, and Mustang GT, as there is still a decent balance of performance. The Camaro fits wider tires, and has more low/mid torque. The E92 is heavy for the amount of tire, but narrow bodied and has less instrusive ABS. The Mustang is just a half step behind but that may change with the '18 depending on where it ends up.
Some are saying that even a well prepped/well driven E46 M3 or Boss Edition Mustang still has a chance and are the best performance per dollar in the class.
FS may get its relative PAX changed, but I would guess (and hope) that the new '17+ Camaro 1LE, Mustang GT350, and F80 M3/M4 will all stay classed outside of the current group in FS.
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Drove a 2012 M3 today, nice car, very poised, but not sure its for me. The running cost of these cars is through the roof.
Stopped in at LA Mazda where I bought my current Miata and drove the new ND GS. Its a very different car than the NC, it felt very nimble, the power delivery is very different, engine is much more responsive and pulls harder in all gears. I can see why the old model NC is totally out classed by the new ND.
Downside, didn't like the audio screen that sticks out the dash and cant be closed, it has very little storage compared to the NC and the body roll is outrageous. All in its a great car. I'm going to test drive the WRX tomorrow, spoke to James a few weeks ago, he is supper impressed with his, seems the consensus is its a better car than the STi and in D Street its competitive. The downside with the WRX is I loose a convertible the plus is I gain a winter car.
Watch this space.
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From what I've gathered the E92 M3 ZCP is still competitive in FS but the top dog is the '17 Camaro SS.
Some are saying that even a well prepped/well driven E46 M3 or Boss Edition Mustang still has a chance and are the best performance per dollar in the class.
Few comments:
- You've probably read this, but if not, read the comparison between the M3, previous-generation Camaro 1LE, and Mustang GT that was done at Nationals a few years ago: https://www.scca.com/articles/2004034-class-report-f-street-comparison. All three basically tied on time. (People, including the article authors, fixate on the times set by the M3 in the morning, but note that the runs done in the Mustang and M3 back-to-back were within 5 hundredths of a second of each other).
Note that the Camaro would do relatively worse at Fort Macleod and Red Deer, as neither lot has room for sweepers, which are where the Camaro makes time on the other cars.
- I asked how the new Camaro stacks up in class. Ryan Otis, who won last year's F Street national championship, responded with the following:
I'd pick the M3. It's the brakes that tip the scale for me, the ABS cal for both the Camaro LT and non-1LE SS are terrible. If the Camaro sucked as an autocross car then the crappy ABS wouldn't really bother me, but the car is so good otherwise that it's actually kinda enraging.
- Lastly, the E46 M3 is close enough that a superhuman driver could win in one, but I've never seen anyone who's owned or driven one (myself included) who thinks it's nearly as good overall as the other cars mentioned on this thread. I'm not convinced it's faster than a D Street Camaro, to be honest (note that the PAX difference between FS and DS is only 0.2 seconds on a 60-second course).
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That last comment is a real head-scratcher, eh? Stephen, what have you done? :) LOL
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Not sure I understand the question, but I owned and ran an E46 M3 in 2014: http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/446609.
Came in sixth at Nationals, 0.8 seconds behind the winner (who was driving a then-brand-new previous-generation Camaro 1LE).
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Buy a FiST and run H-street against my Mazda 3 next year 8) bring back the battle of H-street
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Buy a FiST and run H-street against my Mazda 3 next year 8) bring back the battle of H-street
Find me a FiST I can lease and I'll take that challenge.
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Why don't you guys codrive? Saves money *and* guarantees HS competition. :)
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Buy a FiST and run H-street against my Mazda 3 next year 8) bring back the battle of H-street
Find me a FiST I can lease and I'll take that challenge.
Ford.ca? Airdrie Ford? Calgary Ford? Are you saying they won't lease you a FiST?
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Buy a FiST and run H-street against my Mazda 3 next year 8) bring back the battle of H-street
Find me a FiST I can lease and I'll take that challenge.
Ford.ca? Airdrie Ford? Calgary Ford? Are you saying they won't lease you a FiST?
Production has finished for FiST and the new model is not being sold in North America. Combine that with horrible lease residuals and it's fairly impossible to lease one. When I was looking it was $700+ a month for a three year lease vs $454/month for my WRX.
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Buy a FiST and run H-street against my Mazda 3 next year 8) bring back the battle of H-street
Find me a FiST I can lease and I'll take that challenge.
Ford.ca? Airdrie Ford? Calgary Ford? Are you saying they won't lease you a FiST?
Production has finished for FiST and the new model is not being sold in North America. Combine that with horrible lease residuals and it's fairly impossible to lease one. When I was looking it was $700+ a month for a three year lease vs $454/month for my WRX.
Yuck :o :-\
that sucks if they don't give us the new FiST, that 2 door version is HAWT, they should sell us some limited protection 2 door models, even if its only a few hundred.
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The 2 door is the most popular in the UK
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Is anyone running a FiST locally? I would love to co-drive one before the year is out...
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I'm hoping a 15-17 mustang gt can compete with that damn m3 next year! The street classes have such a variety of performance between the cars in their classes and I personally feel that the newer M3, the new camaro and new mustang don't really fit in with the other FS cars. But thats just because my 05 mustang is out dated in every way to compete with the 2011+. Unless you are like Cam it seems like you have to have the latest and greatest models to have a chance. I fully understand the driver has a lot to do with it but it definitely seems to help having a car that is at the top of its class. That 2011 M3 seems to have such a good balance of power and handling. Such a beautiful car appearance wise as well. If I would allow myself to get a European car it would be the one. I see the 2017 camaro ss 1le with mag suspension(like the new covettes i believe) is up in AS. I imagine the 2018 mustang gt with the shelby gt350 suspension will be in AS as well. I feel I did pretty good in my 05 last year but I feel like a newer one will give me the edge I need to maybe(big maybe) scare Cam and be at the top like Richard has done this year in his M3. Only time will tell.
From what I've gathered the E92 M3 ZCP is still competitive in FS but the top dog is the '17 Camaro SS. I doubt it gets reclassed separately from the '17+ Camaro SS/'16 1LE, and Mustang GT, as there is still a decent balance of performance. The Camaro fits wider tires, and has more low/mid torque. The E92 is heavy for the amount of tire, but narrow bodied and has less instrusive ABS. The Mustang is just a half step behind but that may change with the '18 depending on where it ends up.
FS may get its relative PAX changed, but I would guess (and hope) that the new '17+ Camaro 1LE, Mustang GT350, and F80 M3/M4 will all stay classed outside of the current group in FS.
2015-17 Mustang GT with the Performance Package (PP) can only hit 58MPH in 2nd with the tire of choice (275/35/19-RE71R) that’s the limiting factor for the car otherwise it would truly be right up there neck and neck with the M3 and Camaro SS.
For 2018 the Mustang GT gets a 500RPM increase in redline and most likely will keep the same gearing meaning it’s top speed in 2nd should be close to 63MPH, a decent improvement, will it be enough is the question. For 2018 it also gets a 30hp/20ft-lbs power bump, a slicker manual trans (dual mass flywheel and twin disc clutch) the addition of a 10 speed auto that’s supposed to be really good (co-developed w/ GM, same trans as new Camaro ZL1 and Ford Raptor) as well the mag shocks from the Shelby Mustang 350, from everything I’ve read it sounds like it’s staying in FS with the above mentioned changes.
There’s also rumors of a Level 2 Performance Package on the 18’ Mustang GT that won’t be out until “later”, this Level 2 PP will for sure have 0.5” wider wheels (9.5F & 10R) as well as some other unknown changes, the question is whether or not the PP Level 2 car, which is rumored to compete against the 2016-18 Camaro SS 1LE will stay classed in FS or get bumped out.
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Buy a FiST and run H-street against my Mazda 3 next year 8) bring back the battle of H-street
Find me a FiST I can lease and I'll take that challenge.
Ford.ca? Airdrie Ford? Calgary Ford? Are you saying they won't lease you a FiST?
Production has finished for FiST and the new model is not being sold in North America. Combine that with horrible lease residuals and it's fairly impossible to lease one. When I was looking it was $700+ a month for a three year lease vs $454/month for my WRX.
Team Ford in Edmonton has one that they will finance for 7 years at under $400 a month.
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Buy a FiST and run H-street against my Mazda 3 next year 8) bring back the battle of H-street
Find me a FiST I can lease and I'll take that challenge.
Ford.ca? Airdrie Ford? Calgary Ford? Are you saying they won't lease you a FiST?
Production has finished for FiST and the new model is not being sold in North America. Combine that with horrible lease residuals and it's fairly impossible to lease one. When I was looking it was $700+ a month for a three year lease vs $454/month for my WRX.
Team Ford in Edmonton has one that they will finance for 7 years at under $400 a month.
Not bad, still a fair amount of interest. I see the lease residuals must have changed for the better as the online build config is showing $425/month for a 3 year 20k/year $0 down lease.
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I'm hoping a 15-17 mustang gt can compete with that damn m3 next year! The street classes have such a variety of performance between the cars in their classes and I personally feel that the newer M3, the new camaro and new mustang don't really fit in with the other FS cars. But thats just because my 05 mustang is out dated in every way to compete with the 2011+. Unless you are like Cam it seems like you have to have the latest and greatest models to have a chance. I fully understand the driver has a lot to do with it but it definitely seems to help having a car that is at the top of its class. That 2011 M3 seems to have such a good balance of power and handling. Such a beautiful car appearance wise as well. If I would allow myself to get a European car it would be the one. I see the 2017 camaro ss 1le with mag suspension(like the new covettes i believe) is up in AS. I imagine the 2018 mustang gt with the shelby gt350 suspension will be in AS as well. I feel I did pretty good in my 05 last year but I feel like a newer one will give me the edge I need to maybe(big maybe) scare Cam and be at the top like Richard has done this year in his M3. Only time will tell.
From what I've gathered the E92 M3 ZCP is still competitive in FS but the top dog is the '17 Camaro SS. I doubt it gets reclassed separately from the '17+ Camaro SS/'16 1LE, and Mustang GT, as there is still a decent balance of performance. The Camaro fits wider tires, and has more low/mid torque. The E92 is heavy for the amount of tire, but narrow bodied and has less instrusive ABS. The Mustang is just a half step behind but that may change with the '18 depending on where it ends up.
FS may get its relative PAX changed, but I would guess (and hope) that the new '17+ Camaro 1LE, Mustang GT350, and F80 M3/M4 will all stay classed outside of the current group in FS.
2015-17 Mustang GT with the Performance Package (PP) can only hit 58MPH in 2nd with the tire of choice (275/35/19-RE71R) that’s the limiting factor for the car otherwise it would truly be right up there neck and neck with the M3 and Camaro SS.
For 2018 the Mustang GT gets a 500RPM increase in redline and most likely will keep the same gearing meaning it’s top speed in 2nd should be close to 63MPH, a decent improvement, will it be enough is the question. For 2018 it also gets a 30hp/20ft-lbs power bump, a slicker manual trans (dual mass flywheel and twin disc clutch) the addition of a 10 speed auto that’s supposed to be really good (co-developed w/ GM, same trans as new Camaro ZL1 and Ford Raptor) as well the mag shocks from the Shelby Mustang 350, from everything I’ve read it sounds like it’s staying in FS with the above mentioned changes.
There’s also rumors of a Level 2 Performance Package on the 18’ Mustang GT that won’t be out until “later”, this Level 2 PP will for sure have 0.5” wider wheels (9.5F & 10R) as well as some other unknown changes, the question is whether or not the PP Level 2 car, which is rumored to compete against the 2016-18 Camaro SS 1LE will stay classed in FS or get bumped out.
My 2017 Mazda3 2.5L does 58MPH in 2nd 8) zoom zoom baby
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Not sure I understand the question, but I owned and ran an E46 M3 in 2014: http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/446609.
Came in sixth at Nationals, 0.8 seconds behind the winner (who was driving a then-brand-new previous-generation Camaro 1LE).
haha....I was referring to the DS 4cyl turbo or 6cyl. Camaro ... It is shocking to think it is so close to the FS cars! :)
R
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2015-17 Mustang GT with the Performance Package (PP) can only hit 58MPH in 2nd with the tire of choice (275/35/19-RE71R) that’s the limiting factor for the car otherwise it would truly be right up there neck and neck with the M3 and Camaro SS.
For 2018 the Mustang GT gets a 500RPM increase in redline and most likely will keep the same gearing meaning it’s top speed in 2nd should be close to 63MPH, a decent improvement, will it be enough is the question.
To give you an FS reference point from this last weekend, according to our data I was topping out 2nd at 108kph (67mph) on our short 275/35/18s. This was both exiting the L-eyebrows on the way down to the gate you opened up in the afternoon, and on the last dash to the finish. I spent a total of 7.0s out of a 71.845s scratch time at or above 101kph (63mph).
That being said, the last couple Ft. Macleod courses have had some very fast sections. I never got over 63mph at Westerner on Aug 6, and I've never topped out 2nd at YYC (though I haven't run data there yet). I'll definitely share our findings if it helps you decide on the Mustang. Oh and the speed data I'm using is based on 10Hz GPS, not OBD wheel speed.
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Note that the fastest Mustang times in the test I linked above were set in third gear. The car's got a *lot* of torque, so running out of second gear early isn't as big a disadvantage as it would be in most other cars.
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2015-17 Mustang GT with the Performance Package (PP) can only hit 58MPH in 2nd with the tire of choice (275/35/19-RE71R) that’s the limiting factor for the car otherwise it would truly be right up there neck and neck with the M3 and Camaro SS.
For 2018 the Mustang GT gets a 500RPM increase in redline and most likely will keep the same gearing meaning it’s top speed in 2nd should be close to 63MPH, a decent improvement, will it be enough is the question.
To give you an FS reference point from this last weekend, according to our data I was topping out 2nd at 108kph (67mph) on our short 275/35/18s. This was both exiting the L-eyebrows on the way down to the gate you opened up in the afternoon, and on the last dash to the finish. I spent a total of 7.0s out of a 71.845s scratch time at or above 101kph (63mph).
That being said, the last couple Ft. Macleod courses have had some very fast sections. I never got over 63mph at Westerner on Aug 6, and I've never topped out 2nd at YYC (though I haven't run data there yet). I'll definitely share our findings if it helps you decide on the Mustang. Oh and the speed data I'm using is based on 10Hz GPS, not OBD wheel speed.
Thanks Richard, good to know. Fort Macleod definitely tends to be a fast venue, and those last two courses (July & last Sunday) especially. Did you use 3rd at all or kept it in 2nd the whole time? I personally hate shifting to 3rd, it's cost me dearly in my car over the years time wise due to a missed shift :(
Note that the fastest Mustang times in the test I linked above were set in third gear. The car's got a *lot* of torque, so running out of second gear early isn't as big a disadvantage as it would be in most other cars.
Stephen, good point, I'm really just going off of the big 50 page 2015 Mustang thread on that other forum and the prevailing issue seems to be a short 2nd, I think an extra 5MPH could really help the car. If it's a matter of putting it and 3rd and leaving it that's great but if you have to go 2->3, 3->2, 2->3 in a course for the slow stuff that's costing you time.
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Not sure I understand the question, but I owned and ran an E46 M3 in 2014: http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/aft/446609.
Came in sixth at Nationals, 0.8 seconds behind the winner (who was driving a then-brand-new previous-generation Camaro 1LE).
haha....I was referring to the DS 4cyl turbo or 6cyl. Camaro ... It is shocking to think it is so close to the FS cars!
R
After this morning's Pro Finale runs, Scroggs in his DS Camaro is beating all the FS Camaros by 0.2 sec. ... turbo 4 cyl. :)
He would be 2nd in FS ... :)
R
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2015-17 Mustang GT with the Performance Package (PP) can only hit 58MPH in 2nd with the tire of choice (275/35/19-RE71R) that’s the limiting factor for the car otherwise it would truly be right up there neck and neck with the M3 and Camaro SS.
For 2018 the Mustang GT gets a 500RPM increase in redline and most likely will keep the same gearing meaning it’s top speed in 2nd should be close to 63MPH, a decent improvement, will it be enough is the question.
To give you an FS reference point from this last weekend, according to our data I was topping out 2nd at 108kph (67mph) on our short 275/35/18s. This was both exiting the L-eyebrows on the way down to the gate you opened up in the afternoon, and on the last dash to the finish. I spent a total of 7.0s out of a 71.845s scratch time at or above 101kph (63mph).
That being said, the last couple Ft. Macleod courses have had some very fast sections. I never got over 63mph at Westerner on Aug 6, and I've never topped out 2nd at YYC (though I haven't run data there yet). I'll definitely share our findings if it helps you decide on the Mustang. Oh and the speed data I'm using is based on 10Hz GPS, not OBD wheel speed.
Thanks Richard, good to know. Fort Macleod definitely tends to be a fast venue, and those last two courses (July & last Sunday) especially. Did you use 3rd at all or kept it in 2nd the whole time? I personally hate shifting to 3rd, it's cost me dearly in my car over the years time wise due to a missed shift :(
Note that the fastest Mustang times in the test I linked above were set in third gear. The car's got a *lot* of torque, so running out of second gear early isn't as big a disadvantage as it would be in most other cars.
Stephen, good point, I'm really just going off of the big 50 page 2015 Mustang thread on that other forum and the prevailing issue seems to be a short 2nd, I think an extra 5MPH could really help the car. If it's a matter of putting it and 3rd and leaving it that's great but if you have to go 2->3, 3->2, 2->3 in a course for the slow stuff that's costing you time.
I've hit 66mph in second in a 2015 Mustang GT PP when it hits the rev limiter with stock tires. The stock tires are 1" taller overall than 275/35r19 re71r tires. My calculator is telling me the re71r tires should still hit 63mph in second. For me personally I feel the car will save me time everywhere else on the track, compared to my 05 GT, that making a shift up to third won't lose me enough time for it to be a huge concern of mine. I'm waiting for the 2018 to be released to see if there is a big enough difference between them and the 15-17 to make it worth spending $25k more for a new one. The price difference alone will probably keep me in a used 15 or 16. If a car comes with staggered rims like the mustang are you allowed to run the rear rims on the front in street class? So the 15-17 mustangs rear 9.5" wheels on the front so you have 9.5" on all for corners? If the offset allows them to fit without spacers that is.
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If a car comes with staggered rims like the mustang are you allowed to run the rear rims on the front in street class?
Not legal -- you have to run the stock wheel widths front and rear.
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I've hit 66mph in second in a 2015 Mustang GT PP when it hits the rev limiter with stock tires. The stock tires are 1" taller overall than 275/35r19 re71r tires. My calculator is telling me the re71r tires should still hit 63mph in second.
Keep in mind that stock speedometers always read high. The concern about the short second gear isn't a hypothetical one -- quite a few guys have prepared and run the car, including a friend of mine who came in third in FS at Nats in 2015.
You're absolutely right that the 2015 will still murder your car, but Tom's absolutely right that the 2018 car squeezing a bit of extra speed out of the gear can do nothing but help.
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Interesting how current course designs are favouring cars with large torque and a fast 2nd gear. I do know that my Miata has lots of torque, but that 2-3 shift for faster courses makes it not as competitive (in PAX) as I would like.
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Thanks Richard, good to know. Fort Macleod definitely tends to be a fast venue, and those last two courses (July & last Sunday) especially. Did you use 3rd at all or kept it in 2nd the whole time? I personally hate shifting to 3rd, it's cost me dearly in my car over the years time wise due to a missed shift :(
On the way down I kept it in 2nd, but a split second longer on the limiter and I think 3rd would have been worth the extra downshift into the right hand eyebrow. It was close enough that I thought about whether it would be faster on every run but each time ended up deciding against it. I would guess that in the Mustang it would have been required to set a competitive time through that section. I did use 3rd through the last elements to the finish at both events though.
How well setup is the Mustang for heeltoeing? Some people say BMWs have awesome pedal setups, but I find the e92 throttle is awkwardly placed compared to some other cars.
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Thanks Richard, good to know. Fort Macleod definitely tends to be a fast venue, and those last two courses (July & last Sunday) especially. Did you use 3rd at all or kept it in 2nd the whole time? I personally hate shifting to 3rd, it's cost me dearly in my car over the years time wise due to a missed shift :(
On the way down I kept it in 2nd, but a split second longer on the limiter and I think 3rd would have been worth the extra downshift into the right hand eyebrow. It was close enough that I thought about whether it would be faster on every run but each time ended up deciding against it. I would guess that in the Mustang it would have been required to set a competitive time through that section. I did use 3rd through the last elements to the finish at both events though.
How well setup is the Mustang for heeltoeing? Some people say BMWs have awesome pedal setups, but I find the e92 throttle is awkwardly placed compared to some other cars.
I have driven a number of Mustangs (schools) over the years and don't recall any problems with pedals and I heel/toe as a matter of course in anything I drive.
Reijo
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What we should do is buy one of each. Richard's already got an M3, Tom's thinking about a Camaro, now we just need takers for a 2018 Mustang and either a previous-generation Boss Mustang and s previous-generation 1LE Camaro. We can swap cars throughout the year, then bring the fastest two to Lincoln a year from now and codrive them. :)
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Thanks Richard, good to know. Fort Macleod definitely tends to be a fast venue, and those last two courses (July & last Sunday) especially. Did you use 3rd at all or kept it in 2nd the whole time? I personally hate shifting to 3rd, it's cost me dearly in my car over the years time wise due to a missed shift :(
On the way down I kept it in 2nd, but a split second longer on the limiter and I think 3rd would have been worth the extra downshift into the right hand eyebrow. It was close enough that I thought about whether it would be faster on every run but each time ended up deciding against it. I would guess that in the Mustang it would have been required to set a competitive time through that section. I did use 3rd through the last elements to the finish at both events though.
How well setup is the Mustang for heeltoeing? Some people say BMWs have awesome pedal setups, but I find the e92 throttle is awkwardly placed compared to some other cars.
Good to know. Are after market pedals legal in street? In my Corvette some aftermarket autocross specific pedals were a God send.
What we should do is buy one of each. Richard's already got an M3, Tom's thinking about a Camaro, now we just need takers for a 2018 Mustang and either a previous-generation Boss Mustang and s previous-generation 1LE Camaro. We can swap cars throughout the year, then bring the fastest two to Lincoln a year from now and codrive them. :)
I drove a 17' Camaro SS and wasn't a fan at all, couldn't see a thing out of the car and it felt huge even though I know it's dimensionally smaller than the 5th Gen cars. Me buying a Ford would be a tough mental hurdle but I'm really liking the idea of an 18' Mustang GT PP, we'll see.
I know Ken drove a Boss 302 and didn't love it maybe I can convince him to get a 5th Gen 1LE ;)
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Are after market pedals legal in street?
There's no allowance in Street for aftermarket pedals. You could try arguing that they're a comfort and convenience item, but I'd expect you to lose that argument at a big event.
Given the concern about gearing and shifting, consider another option: an automatic transmission. Besides the increased ease of shifting, in the Camaro's case at least, the auto arguably has better great ratios. The downside is that auto cars often have softer suspensions or are otherwise compromised -- I'm pretty sure that's the case with the Mustang.
I know Ken drove a Boss 302 and didn't love it maybe I can convince him to get a 5th Gen 1LE ;)
What didn't he like about the Boss? It's the FS car that I have the most irrational lust for. :)
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After day 1 at nationals, top 5:
17' Camaro
15' Camaro
16' Mustang
17' Camaro
15' Mustang
First M3 is in 10th.
We'll see how different the course is tomorrow and if the standings get shaken up.
Are after market pedals legal in street?
There's no allowance in Street for aftermarket pedals. You could try arguing that they're a comfort and convenience item, but I'd expect you to lose that argument at a big event.
Given the concern about gearing and shifting, consider another option: an automatic transmission. Besides the increased ease of shifting, in the Camaro's case at least, the auto arguably has better great ratios. The downside is that auto cars often have softer suspensions or are otherwise compromised -- I'm pretty sure that's the case with the Mustang.
I know Ken drove a Boss 302 and didn't love it maybe I can convince him to get a 5th Gen 1LE ;)
What didn't he like about the Boss? It's the FS car that I have the most irrational lust for. :)
Yah fair enough.
His comments were: a very bland interior, weird electric steering, solid rear axle and overall the car didn't feel fast.
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What didn't he like about the Boss? It's the FS car that I have the most irrational lust for. :)
It's a shame the gentleman I was dealing with needed to unload his so quickly or I would have told you to give him a call. I passed on an outstanding deal, he offered me his car for what the dealership had offered him. If I didn't currently have the Miata I may have actually bought it despite how meh I found it. My logic was at the price I would have gotten the car for I could have driven it for a season and sold it at a small profit or broke even worst case. The best parts of the car were the Recaro seats and the V8 noise. Although I have a feeling it may have needed some help to pass our strict 93 dB requirement.
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After day 1 at nationals, top 5:
17' Camaro
15' Camaro
16' Mustang
17' Camaro
15' Mustang
First M3 is in 10th.
Actually, the leader is in an M3 although he's listed as driving a Camaro.
(Boss)
His comments were: a very bland interior, weird electric steering, solid rear axle and overall the car didn't feel fast.
Ken, could you feel the solid axle, or did you just not like it on principle? :) I've never driven one, so I have no idea how bad they are.
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Ken, could you feel the solid axle, or did you just not like it on principle? :) I've never driven one, so I have no idea how bad they are.
I can't definitively say yes. Driving the Boss was my first experience with a solid rear end. I didn't have a chance to push the car very hard, that said the rear end did feel more lively just driving around on our terrible roads.