S.A.S.C.
Solo => Technical Talk => Topic started by: PedalFaster on March 17, 2018, 01:53:10 PM
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We have a new rule this year: only the first three runs on a given course configuration will be counted:
Run Scoring
For the 2018 season we will be putting additional pressure on competitors by only using their first 3 runs of the day towards the championship. This is being done to be more in line with larger US SCCA events where you only get three runs to make it count. Only the first three (3) runs of the day are scored unless the course is changed for the afternoon in which case the first three (3) runs of the morning and the first three (3) runs of the afternoon are scored.
I disagree with this rule, but I understand the intent (and have seen the same debate play out in Seattle).
Here's the thing: the goal of the 3-run rule is to make our events more like national-level events, where you only have 3 runs to get the job done. The 3-run format makes it critically important that you have effective course walks, and are able to immediately push your car to its limits on an unfamiliar course.
As it stands, though, we still allow passenger ride-alongs. Since we're reducing the number of counted runs, riding along with others will confer an even greater advantage than it did before -- it allows previewing the course, and learning how fast you can take specific elements, before you've taken any of your limited number of competition runs. Ride-alongs are not allowed at national-level events.
Allowing passenger ride-alongs directly contravenes the purpose of the 3-run rule. Given that, for consistency's sake it seems that we should either:
- keep the 3-run rule, and ban ride-alongs before fun runs, or
- continue allowing ride-alongs, and rescind the 3-run rule.
Personally, I'd vote for (2) -- I think it's more important to help each other improve by allowing ride-alongs than it is to exactly simulate a national-level event.
What do you all think?
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I agree with your option 2. If anyone is preparing for national level competition they can judge by their and everyone else's 3rd run as to how their doing, as well as be able to compare their run 3, to runs 4 and 5. And when runs 4 and 5 count, they'll be doing their competitive best, so they'll really be able to see if they're getting up to full speed after 3 runs. Only scoring the first 3 runs provides no benefit, other than helping a good (and likely experienced) driver win on the day as it may take others 5 runs to get up to full speed - 5 counted runs is even for everyone and gives the less experienced a better chance IMHO. Personally I'm not apt to make many if any 4th or 5th runs if they're just fun runs. If they don't count, just a little bit the of edge is missing for me. Lastly, in this part of world the ambient temperature is just getting high (hot) enough to get adequate temperature into slicks by the 4th run on most mornings.
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I like option 2 better as well. Keeps every run competitive not just the first 3. Makes it exciting right to the end. Which I believe will benefit everyone more. Not just the top drivers or those who are travelling to the SCCA events. Either way it doesn't really matter to me but if I had to choose it would be option 2.
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Option 3: Option 2 above plas set up a new group (OPAX, short for open pax) and have the drivers compete in that group if they wish. Only the 1st 3 runs count in that group.
Of course, this doesn't help with deciding season championship winners :(
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ASN Canada FIA National Solosport Regulations Autoslalom
3.4.3. Official Number of Runs
There shall be a minimum of two (2) timed runs for each competitor at each event. There shall be no practice runs for any competitor entered in the event. There shall be a time period for Competitors to have an opportunity to walk the course prior to commencement of the first timed run of the event.
SCCA Solo Rules
7.3 Minimum of Three Runs
Each driver shall be allowed at least three (3) official timed runs per course, subject to severe circumstances beyond the control of the event organizers. Only the fastest official run per course will be scored.
The entire premise of Solo events, both ASN Canada and SCCA, is to score a single quickest time within a limited number of runs on a given course, not allowing pre-running of the course. The club hosts Competition Solo Events, not HPDE. Limited run timing and scoring matters.
Scored run limits benefit all competitors. Seasoned veterans, who travel to Championship style events, hone their focus and skills on fewer number of scored runs. Newer participants better understand the Solo Competition format earlier in their learning curve, preparing them for their first National style event.
This year the club increased the number of classes where points are awarded towards a year end champion. Not just a single club champion, but champions recognized in 6 distinctly different groups. The intent being to broaden the awards base and recognize more individuals and their driving abilities.
So, what's the answer... personally I favor limiting points scored runs to 3, or at the most 4, in the best interests of hosting competitive points scoring events. And I agree that allowing ride-alongs is good for driver development.
The best of both worlds IMHO.
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ASN Canada FIA National Solosport Regulations Autoslalom
3.4.3. Official Number of Runs
There shall be a minimum of two (2) timed runs for each competitor at each event. There shall be no practice runs for any competitor entered in the event. There shall be a time period for Competitors to have an opportunity to walk the course prior to commencement of the first timed run of the event.
Note that, while the Canadian and American rules both specify a minimum number of runs, neither specifies a maximum limit. You quoted the Canadian rule above; here's the American rule:
7.3 MINIMUM OF THREE RUNS
Each driver shall be allowed at least three (3) official timed runs per course, subject to severe circumstances beyond the control of the event organizers.
The entire premise of Solo events, both ASN Canada and SCCA, is to score a single quickest time within a limited number of runs on a given course, not allowing pre-running of the course.
Agreed, which is why I'm confused about why we've removed the allowance for course previewing that all competitors could easily take advantage of (scoring more than three runs) while retaining the allowance for course previewing that, practically speaking, only some can take advantage of (ride-alongs).
Are we trying to adhere to national-level rules and prevent previewing or not? If we are, we should limit to three runs *and* ban ride-alongs. If we're not, there's no need for a run limit or a prohibition on ride-alongs. Right now the rules are schizophrenic.
Newer participants better understand the Solo Competition format earlier in their learning curve, preparing them for their first National style event.
The vast majority of our competitors will never travel to a national-level event. Given that, this feels like we're compromising everyone's experience in order to provide a questionable benefit to a small subset of our participants.
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Option 3: Option 2 above plas set up a new group (OPAX, short for open pax) and have the drivers compete in that group if they wish. Only the 1st 3 runs count in that group.
That's what Northwest Region did. Even limited to OPAX, the 3-run rule was probably the most controversial rule enacted in my fifteen years of running there, and it was rescinded after a few years.
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I think that there are unintended consequences here (at least, I think they are unintended). I drive a very light and relatively low powered car (2017 Miata), which means a passenger's weight makes for a significant time penalty. As a result, I am very unlikely to be giving people rides until after my three official runs are completed. The result of that is that the people who are most in need of a ride won't get one until it is too late to do them any good (for that event).
So, yes, even with OPAX limited to the more competitive drivers, problems (my word) still arise.
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My vote would also be to scrap the three run rule. Not sure who or when that discussion happened but...I think ride alongs are important to newbies in the club and less so taken by experienced people for the purpose of advantage. If we don’t allow ride alongs, the the wrong people lose out I think.
Also, I don’t remember the last time I took a fun run so dropping the event to only three runs counting will really just shorten my day :( If these locals are to be practice for some people as the point, fun runs are worthless...when they don’t count, they don’t count...
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If I could 'up vote' Stephen's Reply #5, I would.....despite the fact I'll be a limited (potentially non existent) participant in the forthcoming season. He summarizes my perception of things in a much more politic manner than I ever could!
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A poll has been added to this post.
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Think Stephen has a very good point in that the Seattle/NW Region of the SCCA has tried this before and it did not work very well ... or as intended.
Perhaps we should "learn" from their experiment and not repeat it. No need to re-invent the wheel as they say.
Maybe we can have separate scoring listed/displayed/calculated for 3-official-runs (unofficial, of course but for the interest of those so inclined)? Is that possible, Murray?
Reijo
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Yes, I can run a separate scoring output for 3 a run limit. No problem; I will just auto-enroll everyone into the OPAX group.
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Yes, I can run a separate scoring output for 3 a run limit. No problem; I will just auto-enroll everyone into the OPAX group.
Perfect! :)
R
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At one of the Fort Macleod events last year there was an issue with the timing equipment so we just did fun runs for the afternoon. A significant amount of people chose not to participate in the fun runs, parking their cars for the afternoon or heading home.
If the afternoon runs don't count people may not want to run and will be forced to stay and work without running. It's a consequence of their choice, but wouldn't make for a very fun day in my opinion. Do participants also work at larger events where they only get three runs? (sorry, not familiar with how it works elsewhere).
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At national level events, the reason for the 3 run limit is because the number of contestants (250-300) only allows for 3 runs each (total of 800-900 runs per day). So, when you come to such an event, you sign up for one heat where you run (and get 3 runs), and one heat where you work. The selection is effectively random -- you may work first thing in the morning and run last thing in the evening. Or vice versa.
To answer your question, yes, you always have to work a heat for every heat that you run.
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At national level events, the reason for the 3 run limit is because the number of contestants (250-300) only allows for 3 runs each (total of 800-900 runs per day). So, when you come to such an event, you sign up for one heat where you run (and get 3 runs), and one heat where you work. The selection is effectively random -- you may work first thing in the morning and run last thing in the evening. Or vice versa.
To answer your question, yes, you always have to work.
I'll add a bit more to this: Normally at SCCA National level events your runs and work heats are two heats apart (so you have time to get your car out of grid back to the pits, get cleaned up ... maybe work on the car etc. and so that you have time to get to your work assignment - remember at SCCA Nationals, the site is more than 1 mile from north to south ... could be a long walk to get back to work!). And then if you have women running in your car they have to figured in and often run in the heat before or after you run (you can have up to 4 people running your car - e.g. 2 women and 2 men since you run in separate heats). In some rare cases there may even be people running a car in different classes! E.g. Tom Berry in BSP and they sometimes run the Evo in SM as well since the car is eligible for both classes as prepared.
So it can get complicated.
Another case that sometimes happens is someone comes to run only in the morning and they have somewhere else to be in the afternoon (wedding perhaps ... or as Tom M. comes and gives us extra help setting up or other tasks so he can get home early from Calgary to Lethbridge to take care of his elderly parents). So we are somewhat flexible and there are some valid reasons for some people leaving early. And, they do either extra work or their appropriate work heats.
Hope that clears up a bit more. All is not always like it appears. It's a good thing to ask questions before letting accusations fly. :)
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I did not get out to a great amount of events last year but I do remember the ride alongs were super valuable to me at least and the number of timed runs was irrelevant as I am more concerned with total runs and seat time.
This is a perspective of where I am as a driver and what I want out of the club at this point though and I think we need to include everyone, but as long as we keep the ride alongs I am happy with whatever scoring or run format is decided on!
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Just to muddy the waters further haha,.....right now the club typically has 2 races of 5 runs each in a day. A way to keep everyone happy (sort of), is we could have 3 races of 3 runs only, with fun runs after the end of the 3rd race. Total number of runs would be 10 or more depending on how many fun runs people want to do and how much time there is. Only the first 3 runs would count in each race (as there is only 3 runs), and we'd get 9 counting runs in per day. Doing 3 races, it would take longer to get 9 total runs in then the current format. And finally just to give Murray more of challenge, the race day could potentially be decided on everyone's best 2 races of the 3.
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Just to muddy the waters further haha,.....right now the club typically has 2 races of 5 runs each in a day. A way to keep everyone happy (sort of), is we could have 3 races of 3 runs only, with fun runs after the end of the 3rd race. Total number of runs would be 10 or more depending on how many fun runs people want to do and how much time there is. Only the first 3 runs would count in each race (as there is only 3 runs), and we'd get 9 counting runs in per day. Doing 3 races, it would take longer to get 9 total runs in then the current format. And finally just to give Murray more of challenge, the race day could potentially be decided on everyone's best 2 races of the 3.
The time for changeovers absolutely kills us, if we did 3 changeovers I doubt we'd get anywhere near the 8-10runs/day we're currently getting without the days going until 5pm.
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I agree with Tom -- changeovers would be a big time drain.
Also, having fun runs at the end of the day doesn't work all that well. A large majority of people just pack up and leave, which results in insufficient workers to chase cones. Worse, people that might want to leave (timing people, site managers, etc.) are forced to stay and work, even when they have no interest in sticking around.
We are one of the few clubs I know of that splits our day into 2 sections for purposes of scoring. This is mostly an attempt to even out temperature differences that affect cars+tires differently, especially in our northern climate. One club (Vancouver) uses it for a special 2 day event (Summer Blitz), where you get scored on your best run over 4 courses and 2 days. That was how they ran the Canadian Nationals last year. This year, I am hoping that YYC allows us to reverse a course between morning and afternoon, and your score is the best time from each course.
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Good points. I couldn't remember how long the change overs took. Personally I would prefer 2 x 5 runs vs 3 x 3 runs.
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Thanks everyone for your input and Stephen for bringing this up, we will rescind the 3 run rule, the format for this years' championship will be the same as previous years'.