S.A.S.C.
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Terry Johns on August 24, 2015, 08:54:24 AM
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Can we use the same course on the next test and tune? I suggest that for test and tune to be effective we need to run the same course then we can measure the changes we are making to our cars.
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Are you asking to use the same course for test and tune as for the competition? This wouldn't fly as that would be a preview of the course, thus making running as many T & T runs to practice for that actual competition a necessity for those competing. T & T is getting the car set up making sure it's running efficiently. Any custom changes to suit the actual competition course have to be done either by intuition (from looking at the course map) or during the actual timed runs.
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Are you asking to use the same course for test and tune as for the competition?
i think he was suggesting for the next test and tune at the next weekend event we use the same course as was used this past weekend so in the case that any of us made changes to our cars or strategies/techniques we could easily compare how or if the changes have helped or hindered our performances. not a bad idea in my perspective but either way, racing is racing! 8) :)
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ah that makes much more sense. The only problem I don't know if porta potties are in the budget for the practice events :P
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Using a previous course for a test and tune is fine but a preview of a upcoming points event course would not be ok, as it would be an unfair advantage people at the test and tune.
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Using the Nationals course (which day?) for one of our T&T courses won't work all that well. There was zero overlap, so it would take us all day to get in three (perhaps four) runs. If we grid in our usual place, we can usually get in 6-10 runs, depending on attendance.
I also wonder if you are expecting too much here. Are you good enough that your times are only affected by changes to the car? Or do your times go down with repeated runs (aka practise)? If the latter, then running last weekend's courses is a pointless exercise. Any course will do.
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Only if you get enough runs. Any development work has to be done at the same location and course. You can only compare apples with apples, but your quite correct any course will do if we can use the same course week after week, that's why F1 always test at the same track
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Even the same course on the same track isn't all that useful. Times will vary dramatically due to differences in the air temperature, the pavement temperature, and your tire temperatures. And of course, the driver's capability to repeat times to the 10th of a second every single run.
An exact (or even close) comparison in this sport is not really possible except via back to back runs with swapped (unheated) tires on every run. If you care that much, buy some serious data logging equipment -- it will give you better data. The same course just isn't useful enough, nor is it much fun for the rest of us.
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I did hear a good idea from Jeff on the weekend, that I will expand with some ideas I had as well. A possibility would be to run 2 (or more, but that gets tough at Fort Macleod) courses one with a focus on the runway/taxiway sweeper and the other a straight forward slalom down and back. This would enable quick turnaround on runs and could allow a way to see if you are making setup changes that favour either of them. I would wager that all levels of club member could make good use of this, for some it would be playing with tire pressures and their effects while some could dial in other suspension setting.
For the most benefit it would be great to do this type of thing early in the season so we could get people running at a higher level right off the hop. In addition this type of setup would be great for new drivers as focusing on singular elements is a great way to learn the basics quickly so full courses are not as intimidating.
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I agree, what's important is to have a place where we can play around with settings and then test if they work, as I've said it has to be the same track and lots of runs, otherwise his the hell do you ever improve, all forms of motor sport dont do their testing and development work whilst competing. I suggest we need a re think on T&T
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For the most benefit it would be great to do this type of thing early in the season so we could get people running at a higher level right off the hop. In addition this type of setup would be great for new drivers as focusing on singular elements is a great way to learn the basics quickly so full courses are not as intimidating.
We would need two timing systems (not entirely doable -- we would need another display sign and computer). And who would run (and transport) the second timing system? I am not volunteering for that duty.
I would also argue that the second course would be of interest to a very few people. I am happy using the regular competition courses for dialing in tire pressures and other settings. As for more serious changes, they can't be done between runs, but need some garage time.
Call me sceptical on this idea; the mechanics of making it work seem problematic. Unless the people wanting a second course are willing to set it up themselves and do without timing?
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On the same subject, has anyone really thought about duplicating a course? We can't use permanent markings, so that means some serious work with a tape measure and really good record keeping. Even small changes can make a large difference in the course behaviour (and times), so it would need to be measured out to the nearest centimeter or so. Tons of work for someone...
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I guess your not convinced
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I personally like the idea and am willing to participate in doing what needs doing so that Murray and the other more experienced people who have been doing all the heavy lifting can get some more driving in and enjoy themselves! The effort put into these events by the organizers is tremendous and really appreciated.
We're not saying (from what I can glean from the discussion so far) that we're doing this next time out, only that conceptually this is a good idea. While I'm new to autocross, I'm not new to competitive sport and I know that you don't learn nearly as well or as much without practice. Testing and tuning would be beneficial for the club - that's my opening argument. Let's face it, there isn't anywhere to go try things that is local for anyone. So it's not going to be convenient unless Calgary folks can find a parking lot and the few of us from Lethbridge and area can get our venue back.
I've been heavily invested in testing and tuning my car this year (I haven't driven the same car at two events). Let's see...three different front end set ups, two different sets of springs, two different rear axle configurations...every time I pull up to the line it's a grand adventure in empiricism. Oh and I'm a complete novice and probably change more than the car. It would be nice to be able to analyse (even just a picture is worth a lot) what effect these changes have had. I'm a lot more comfortable driving my car now than I was in April and my little development program has helped the most important aspect - which is my overall comfort in/with the car. One of my best mods was a dead pedal to help me hold on not the super expensive stuff.
I would also agree with Murray, that driver consistency is a significant variable and I for sure can't drive a course the same way every time. But in theory, if we had a really limited course, you could see if you think what you did made any difference. Two turn arounds, a sweeper or two and a slalom done twice.
Oh and I'm reasonably good with a tape measure and have access to survey equipment if people want to go nuts.
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It is certainly possible to do something simple for a T&T at any event. Just grab some cones and a radio and head down to the far end of the runway.
It gets very complex and expensive if you want your own timing system.
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I'm in the "not quite convinced" camp. A big part of getting better at autocross is learning how to learn a new course. How to see differences and apply them, practice memorizing a new layout etc.
I do understand the need for a consistent baseline for making comparisons of changes to the car. I'm just unconvinced that it's worth the extra work. Good data logging can do a lot for you and I'll argue that unless you're already doing that, the static T&T course is of limited value to you.
What would be interesting is to set up the "pork chop" as a separate skid pad area on the Sat practice day to do tire testing a couple times a year.