S.A.S.C.

Solo => Technical Talk => Topic started by: Canuck on July 27, 2015, 12:46:35 PM

Title: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on July 27, 2015, 12:46:35 PM
Ok - looking for some sound council on the next steps I should take in developing my 1981 Volvo 242. I'm already in SM for silly reasons but wheeling the car around the cones is still a handful and while I'm pretty much the slowest guy out (and I'm not going to be fast anytime soon - I know I'm on a learning curve and a significant part of the issue) I'm working hard in the car - this doesn't feel like the Sunday drive my time are showing.

Things I've done since April:
Limited slip differential (new clutches and a full rebuild). Rear bushings, 2 sets of lower control arms to get 2.3 degrees of negative camber (fist set gave me 3.3 degrees negative and I lost front brake), now running zero toe. New rear shocks. New adjustable endlinks.

It already has an aftermarket anti roll bar, Wilwood brakes and a host of other mods.

My front tires have no shoulder from my initial efforts and are getting close to the wear indicators.

Things I think would be good ideas.

1. Stiffer springs - help stop the ship from rocking so much. Don't want to go nuts with rates as I don't want to exceed my Billy HD's valving. I haven't modelled the suspension to know where roll centres/couples/CG's are, but I should get on that.

2. Tires. This has to be worth some confidence at least. I can't hit things like sweepers fast as I'm grip limited. I can't back side a cone to save my life either, so keep that in mind.

I removed a big rear anti roll bar and am looking for a stock ARB as I had so much rear roll resistance that I was loosing grip. Volvo guys that run these things mostly remove the rear ARB (live rear axle BTW).

Or just give up for now, swap fronts for rears, drive it on the door handles and stop over-thinking it.

Craig
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: NickST on July 27, 2015, 12:50:02 PM
Fat wide 200w tires.... it would do wonders for your car over what you have now!
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: James@SpecR on July 27, 2015, 01:13:40 PM
Modifying is a slippery slope.  Get some 200TW tires and leave it at that...
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: MurrayPeterson on July 27, 2015, 01:34:08 PM
Tires!  Get a set of the modern tires -- they may wear out too fast and cost a lot, but they will give you your best bang for the buck.

Oh, and driver mods.  Improving the driver will do more than anything else.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on July 27, 2015, 02:43:35 PM
I'm running Hankook Ventus V12 Evo's TW 280...it's not rolling on bias plys or anything.  I've been down a very slippery slope of mods on this car...FWIW it was retrieved from a JY in 2007.  Literally every mechanical part has been changed. 

Looking at Bridgestone RE-71R's...anyone running them?
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: NickST on July 27, 2015, 02:51:43 PM
I'm running Hankook Ventus V12 Evo's TW 280...it's not rolling on bias plys or anything.  I've been down a very slippery slope of mods on this car...FWIW it was retrieved from a JY in 2007.  Literally every mechanical part has been changed. 

Looking at Bridgestone RE-71R's...anyone running them?

Best street tires you can get right now, the runner up is the Dunlop Star Specs. They only last about 100 runs, while the Dunlops will last twice that.

Also; Go as wide as you possible can, haha
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: majormojo on July 27, 2015, 02:54:00 PM
Yeah, you've got good advice so far. Here's a quick cheat sheet for autox success:

- 80% driver
- 15% tires
- 5% everything else

The downside of course is that it's way easier and more convenient to buy stuff and put it on the car than to work on the driver. The upside is you can take all your "driver mods" with you if you change cars.

Do the tires first and see what your body roll and tire wear looks like. Grippier tires might require stiffer springs to keep them working well and lowering if possible might help. When going stiffer, you will probably dislike the ride before you exceed the capacity of your HD shocks. Your alignment seems reasonable. A bit of front toe out (1/4 in or so) should give a bit quicker turn in. I'd adjust that in the AM before running and then put it back to something more reasonable for the drive back home.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Terry Johns on July 27, 2015, 05:22:49 PM
Sell it buy a Miata and stick the Volvo badge on it.  :o :o LOL
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on July 27, 2015, 08:13:55 PM
Sell it buy a Miata and stick the Volvo badge on it.  :o :o LOL

Best advice so far...given the number of events left, I'll probably just rotate my tires and suffer through the learning curve.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Terry Johns on July 27, 2015, 08:22:19 PM
In all seriousness, I would totally agree to Jim's comments.

Yeah, you've got good advice so far. Here's a quick cheat sheet for autox success:

- 80% driver
- 15% tires
- 5% everything else

The downside of course is that it's way easier and more convenient to buy stuff and put it on the car than to work on the driver. The upside is you can take all your "driver mods" with you if you change cars.

In the end it is what it is, enjoy it and don't try and make it what it isn't. The 240 Volvo is a wonderful car, it is what it is.  :)
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on August 01, 2015, 09:16:55 AM
I've just finished reading Smooth is Fast Autocross Performance.  Ever since April, I've focused more on little details on the street driving at legal speeds and working on developing good habits that transfer to this sport.  The author has some good tips for finding out your car dimensions and I'm currently dodging pot holes (trying to put either a front or rear tire one the edge). It's harder to put the rear tire in place - but I at least feel like I'm able to get some practice time in on car placement that's not at the frenetic pacing experienced at the track. 

That said, I've also got some stiffer springs that are going in before the Canadian Nationals and will be working on suspension development over the winter.  Driver development never stops.  I'd be very interested in what you do on a daily basis to work on honing your skills. 
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Terry Johns on August 01, 2015, 01:30:58 PM
Sounds great, where did you find the book ?

Terry
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on August 02, 2015, 07:50:13 AM
Amazon has it for Kindle.  Pretty good read actually.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Terry Johns on August 03, 2015, 07:12:53 AM
Amazon has it for Kindle.  Pretty good read actually.

Thanks. By the way, sitting in my garage I have an overdrive unit that came out of a 1968 122S  :)
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on August 03, 2015, 05:43:04 PM
I've got a few parts for one of those as well...

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/Volvo_122_Restoration/IMG_20150616_135315_zpsuzy9jnxo.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/Volvo_122_Restoration/IMG_20150616_135315_zpsuzy9jnxo.jpg.html)
 8)
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Terry Johns on August 03, 2015, 06:06:06 PM
I've got a few parts for one of those as well...

http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/Volvo_122_Restoration/IMG_20150616_135315_zpsuzy9jnxo.jpg.html

 8)

A 2 door that must be real rare. My uncle used rally one back in the uk
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on August 11, 2015, 03:51:23 PM
OK so a few parts showed up from Coleman Racing.  My car is now sporting 300 lbs/in front and 200 lbs/in rear springs...a little less leaning and more grip is the result.  We'll see how that translates into time in a little over a week. 

I'm working on a complete overhaul of the suspension for the winter - this is just to continue the development and ride out the season.  For the record, that's a doubling of the spring rate that was in the car.  I've not computed the wheel rate (I'll do the engineering later).
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: nnywg on August 13, 2015, 11:59:24 AM
...I'm already in SM for silly reasons but wheeling the car around the cones is still a handful and while I'm pretty much the slowest guy out...

Just work on improving against yourself.  You built that car because it inspired you and you enjoy it. 

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5754/20357390880_a9cf9b9cf8_o.jpg)
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on August 13, 2015, 06:59:40 PM
That's sound advice and a life-long quest. I get it - but I'm a professional learner of sorts, so  I enjoy learning and seek to get better everyday.  I'm only competing with myself - to try to do the best I can.  I also think that learning takes teaching and empirical knowledge is slow to acquire.  That's why I've signed up for every school and practice session that I can attend.    Tuning the car is part of the system that is relatively easy to control...it's the easy part.  I'm just having a lot of fun putting things (engineering things) into practice that I've spent a lot of time working on learning in the past 5-6 years. 
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Terry Johns on August 13, 2015, 09:42:00 PM
What a great looking car, and what a great attitude, the club is a better place because of people like you.

Minds a JD & Coke. LOL

Terry
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on August 24, 2015, 11:07:02 AM
I don't really want to start a new thread on my experience at the Canadian Nationals - but I thought I'd add to this thread to report back on how things all worked out.  I had decided on increasing the spring rate on the front and rear...and even if it made no difference at all, it might have given me a bit more confidence. 

The Beginnings


The stock spring rates are(spring rates are different from wheel rates as spring rates do not account for the motion ratio of the suspension - for our adventure here, I'll deal in spring rates for now):

Front spring rates = approximately 120 lbs/inch
Rear sedan rates = approximately 114 lbs/inch

By any modern standard these rates are very light for a sporting car, in fact they are soft as cheese by any measure. 

Modification

One of the first things I did was to acquire better shocks/struts (can we just call them dampers?) for the car in the form of Bilstein HD's.  Remember, the function of a damper is to control the oscillation of the spring and as such it's a velocity control system.  Top tip - if you think your shocks are done, don't move them through their travel slowly...fully extend them and give them a quick compression snap by hand.  If they move down really easily - they're not doing their job anymore and should be tossed...you can also tell as they will probably be covered in oil.

The initial rebuild of the car had me running lowering springs with the following spring rates:

Front spring rates = approximately 157 lbs/inch
Rear sedan rates = approximately 140 lbs/inch but they are variable rate - so hard to evaluate.

So this was how I was running the car all year.  I don't have a ton of grip to start with and in roll, I was pulling the outside tire mostly off the ground.  Now, I understand that the outside tire isn't the weighted tire in a turn to start with, but this is sort of the opposite of what you folks driving the Focus/Fiesta's experience when you "tripod" a rear tire.

When  this happens on a front tire - it doesn't build a lot of confidence for a novice driver.

For example - here I am at the end of a reasonably open slalom. 

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/Autocross/IMG_9749%20copy_zpsbzv8ydy7.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/Autocross/IMG_9749%20copy_zpsbzv8ydy7.jpg.html)

And here's a look at what happens during a transition.


(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/Autocross/IMG_9716%20copy_zps37c9sfb1.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/Autocross/IMG_9716%20copy_zps37c9sfb1.jpg.html)

So one of the reasons to start this thread was to investigate what I can do to tune this behaviour out of the car.  One of the aspects that I knew I could change was to stiffen up the spring rate to counteract the weight shift of a turn.  In essence,  push the car back upright by providing more spring for it to lean on.  The car is already running an aftermarket anti-roll bar for those that immediately start thinking in that direction.  With a strut suspension system, the roll centre is very low (close to the ground) this acts as a moment arm on the centre of gravity of the car (let's call that the crankshaft centre or a bit higher for argument sake) and there isn't much you can do about that by way of modification.  The greater this distance, the easier it is for your car to rotate.  Counteracting this force is done by both springs and anti-roll bars (which are just springs)  Over all, the car is way too soft for autocross.

Tuning

There just isn't much out there for springs - the stock options are out there but have very limited variety.  The size of the spring limits what you can fit as it's an odd size (about 6.7" OD).  You could wander around the JY with a tape measure if you like, or try out the various stock options (10 lbs/inch here or there isn't going to matter all that much in the grand scheme of things).  I found an old thread on another forum that outlined how to adapt standard coil over 2.5" ID springs to my struts.  Here's what I did.

1.  The standard 10" 2.5" ID springs are a good match to the length needed.  You just need to pick a rate - at least 200 lbs/in as a start point (from what I've read).  They are cheap at $110 per set at Coleman racing - lots of rates to choose from.  That's for Hyperco's - good consistent spring - not some eBay nonsense.
2.  You maintain the ability to convert back to standard springs - if the results were terrible, I can go back with ease and I've spent $110 USD for the springs and a few dollars more for the lower perch and shipping. 
3.  Changing it takes only a few hours - so testing and tuning is possible.

Method

Rears first:
No spring size exists for the rear of the car and it has a specific attachment pigtail - soI sourced a set of wagon overload springs that are far stiffer than stock sedan springs and I cut 2.5 coils off them yielding about 180 lbs/in spring rate.   


Front Struts:
Front struts were next.  They required the 2.5" springs, some 2" sch 40 ABS (2" pieces - cut a slit so they fit over the strut tube), and a set of coleman racing lower spring perch spacers.  The perch spacers were originally 1" tall, so I cut them down to 1/4" and had to sand the ABS until it was a snug fit on the strut and lower perch. 

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/242/Suspension/IMG_20150809_143943_zpscdazymwl.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/242/Suspension/IMG_20150809_143943_zpscdazymwl.jpg.html)

Then the upper spring perch - the stock one - is modified by adding a piece of 2.5" exhaust pipe 1" long to work as a register for the spring.  The OD of the spring is a nice fit into the ridge of the inside of the upper perch.  Looks like this.

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/242/Suspension/IMG_20150808_143447_zpstxqwd1t1.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/242/Suspension/IMG_20150808_143447_zpstxqwd1t1.jpg.html)

Put it all back together and put it back in the car.  Done.  This picture was from the first test before I cut the lower perch down.

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/242/Suspension/IMG_20150808_134232_zpsif93s2ny.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/242/Suspension/IMG_20150808_134232_zpsif93s2ny.jpg.html)

Here it is in the car.  Now with 300 lbs/in of spring rate. 

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/242/Suspension/IMG_20150808_141418_zpsjulefyu3.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/242/Suspension/IMG_20150808_141418_zpsjulefyu3.jpg.html)

Now, you don't get to adjust much - that's pretty much it.  This is the ride height I ended up with.  Proper coil overs give you height adjustment and I'll have a set of them in the spring for next season.

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/242/Suspension/IMG_20150809_175341_zps9li3v9jy.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/242/Suspension/IMG_20150809_175341_zps9li3v9jy.jpg.html)

Results

My first chance to run the setup was at the Mini SoloPro School (highly recommended).  The front/rear balance was very good and while I don't yet have any photographic evidence, I didn't think it was rolling as much.  The net effect is that the steering is more sensitive to input. The experience was a lot more confidence inspiring.  The car didn't feel like it was going to fall over and another side benefit was that the tires were gripping better and not scrubbing as much. 

On to the Canadian Autocross Championship.

Wow - what a great experience.  I've never competed at a national level in anything, so I put on my big boy pants and entered the Canadian Autocross Championship - my second ever event.  Very different overall feel from our regular events - lots of rules at a national event that we just don't see at local events.  Race stewards, accounting, cone/penalty records, weights, competition checks of the car.  So very much more up-tight...this is a big deal - there's prize money (thousands + sets of tires were won). 

This was my first time running the new stiffer springs on the car.  Nervous as hell, hoping I don't get lost...in the last run group without a hope of remembering the course.  I kept recalling the SCCA Novice instructions:


After the first run group, it also became apparent that my target time based on where I run versus you guys at our regular events would put me dead last - by a margin.    I also didn't want to be last - but I reconciled that it would probably happen and that at least I was there and LEARNING A LOT.  Anyway with 6 hours between walking the course and running it (that seemed like an eternity), I pretty much forgot what it looked like.  Sure, I had a course map, but that doesn't tell you what the sea of cones will look like.  More things to work on.

With my marshalling shift over, we were ready to run.  I tried to position my car so I wouldn't be running first - and try to see if I could figure it out by watching the other cars.  I tried to visualize the course - I was working the first slalom which was right after the start gate - so not much information there.  It's the far end of the course where things get complicated.  How does that go again?

First run - got tricked by a cone wall that was meaningless - went to the outside of the wall, scattering the marshals and going off course (at least I wasn't on the grass).  Then the tunnel vision kicks in and I blow another element or two.  DNF #1.  Dammit - that wasn't good - time around 77 seconds.  Slow - very slow. Terry gives me the "slice through the neck" sign at timing - I know.  Ouch.

Oh and it wasn't helping that cars like this were in my class.

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/Autocross/IMG_20150822_103905_zpsiqqaoafr.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/Autocross/IMG_20150822_103905_zpsiqqaoafr.jpg.html)

Yup - GTR on slicks...sure, I can beat that guy!  :D

Wait an hour fretting over my off-course to try again.  Then promptly on the first slalom, I go off course again at the double cone at the end of the slalom.  I get tricked by an element that I stood beside for almost 3 hours!  OMG - stupid nerves - FOCUS.  Blow a shift..FOCUS - head up, look ahead. What's next?  Thrash it throughout the rest of the run and still post an 80 second time.  Should be in 3rd gear to get speed up, but just can't get the grip on the big sweepers.  Hopeless.  DNF #2.

I've got one more chance to make it count - if I don't post a time on day 1 they can't compute an average for me for the event and I may as well not run on Sunday.  I'd also be pretty embarrassed - I don't usually get lost on course, but I was super nervous and quite frankly, that many trailered cars with fast drivers was enough to make any novice feel more than a bit out of place. 

On to the third run.  Focus - I can do this.  No time to quit.  And rev it up and dump the clutch - off we go.  I've never been so happy to get a post-it note with a time on it in my life.  I've got a time.  I'm dead last, but I've got a time.  77.9 seconds would make most of you guys hang yourselves and I'm over the moon.  I get to run on Sunday.

One of the perks to running in SM is that you have to be weighed.  I, of course, have no clue about this rule and am feeling stupid pulling up tho the scales.  I'm guessing you have to be over your minimum weight?  Everyone was really nice about me not wanting to jack directly on my freshly painted differential.  Totally cool - my cut rear springs were pretty accurately done!  The rest of the weight bias would be caused by the battery.  And I now have corner weights that the shock guys will want to work out new valving (I'm not done tinkering yet (ever?)).

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/Autocross/IMG_20150822_171329_hdr_zpsduh4gffv.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/Autocross/IMG_20150822_171329_hdr_zpsduh4gffv.jpg.html)

Lighter than it looks - lots of people surprised by this.  Slower than it should be, but that's my fault.

The run groups were reversed for Sunday, so I was able to walk the course and then run it right away.  I don't talk to many people - have to keep the course in my head.  There were many changes (things flipped, directions changed in the turn around) and other tricks.  I line up to go late in the run as the Sun is still low and I don't really need to be blinded running into the Sun. Come on - I need every advantage even if it's just perceived.   I make it around - don't get fooled - few elements needed work, but no cones, so I'm happy.  77.9 seconds.  Dead last but I now have a combined time.

Run 2 - Clean up a few things, get to the back of a few cones, but am dealing with a car that wouldn't idle and was cutting under boost.  Who knows what's wrong.  I run it anyway - WTF.  Several competitors come by to offer their analysis - so it wasn't just me that noticed it behaving badly.  Feels like it's got power low down, but upper RPM is just runs out of breath.  Not like I can analyze it while frantic driving.  I can feel that it's slow, but I'm not at the limit of the tires in this run.  The springs really helped and my driving has improved.  74.91 seconds - hey, that's 3 seconds faster.  That's huge.  That would be enough to put me on the tail of the next slowest guy.  I may not be last after all.

Run -3 - As soon as I fire up the car the idle is fine and we've got power again.  Maybe ECU related.  Who knows?  No time to ask questions.  Gotta get rolling.  I'm "flying" through the track this time.  Riding the edge of traction, I can feel it wiggling around under me on most corners, hitting most of the areas that I needed to improve.  No understeer on turn arounds (it was me after all) - hitting the power on and brake points just the way I had visualized (if they were right or not...who can tell).  I fly through the finish and the LED screen reads 73.742.  I let out a huge cheer to the complete confusion of the timing workers (for whom this is a painfully slow run).  That's as good as I can do at this stage - it's all been left on the track.  You can tell I'm a raw rookie as I'm moving 4 seconds in 3 runs...most of the other competitors are are scrapping at tenths.  No cones today.

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/Autocross/IMG_20150823_104637_zpsbwo37btl.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/Autocross/IMG_20150823_104637_zpsbwo37btl.jpg.html)

So that's one mission accomplished.  I met the 75 second goal.  But I'm dead last.  Off I go to my marshalling station.  Sitting in 88th place.  Hey, I'm here - I've learned a lot and the other competitors are not telling me to leave and never return.  So that's not the end of the world. 

Then as I check the online scoring again, I notice (about half way through the last run group) that two cars didn't make it to the grid.  They post no times and I'm now sitting in 86/88  in PAX...I wasn't dead last!  Hey, if your car brakes, that's not my problem - they posted times Saturday and didn't Sunday.  Woo-hoo.

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/Autocross/11891546_10206087006068757_851652143403178269_o_zps6hlkr8ze.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/Autocross/11891546_10206087006068757_851652143403178269_o_zps6hlkr8ze.jpg.html)
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: James@SpecR on August 24, 2015, 11:15:22 AM
Pretty good cross weights on the car, and lighter than I would have thought that's for sure.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Stuart on August 24, 2015, 11:28:58 AM
At least I wasn't the only one who got caught by that wall on day 1.  And that was despite mentioning it during my course walks.  It can happen to any of us in the heat of the moment  8)  Glad to see you out, and hope you are truly hooked now.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Tuna on August 24, 2015, 12:27:22 PM
What sway bars are you running?
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on August 24, 2015, 04:07:52 PM
What sway bars are you running?

Front bar is by IPD and is 25 mm (stocks is 21 mm).  I'm not running a rear bar at this time, but have a factory 19 mm and IPD 25 mm rear bar.  Solid rear axle remember and the rear bar is removed by most running autocross as the larger aftermarket rear bars are so stiff that they tend to lift the rear wheels off the ground instead of letting the rear articulate and find grip.  There is only one stiffer front bar - a whopping 28 mm and they are basically unobtanium (of course I know a guy who's got one stashed).  They're generally agreed to be far too much bar (200 % more than stock) unless you're track racing the car.  Bar stiffness increases to the 4th power of diameter - so from stock, the 25 mm bar is just a little over 100% more front ARB.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: majormojo on August 24, 2015, 04:26:00 PM
Are you OK modifying the car for autox to the point where it's uncomfortable to drive on the street? That's where most hardcore autox cars in prepared and modified classes end up... From what you describe and the photos, I'd be looking at that 28mm front bar  and much stiffer springs. A stiffer bar will help more in cornering without making the ride as harsh as stiffer springs will, but I think you'll want both.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on August 24, 2015, 05:58:57 PM
Are you OK modifying the car for autox to the point where it's uncomfortable to drive on the street? That's where most hardcore autox cars in prepared and modified classes end up... From what you describe and the photos, I'd be looking at that 28mm front bar  and much stiffer springs. A stiffer bar will help more in cornering without making the ride as harsh as stiffer springs will, but I think you'll want both.

I'm thinking about it.  Based on my modifications so far, it's fine on the street.  Not even obnoxiously stiff.  This is my winter car, so some sanity must prevail, but it's also a "development" car as I'm building another car to take over these duties in the future.  So it's sort of a stop gap car for now.  I am also acutely aware that with my times are consistently falling during a run, it's also chasing consistency/experience so having more car under me is probably a bit of a waste.  I also don't really want to be swapping springs/dampers every season (though it's really not hard to do).

I'll have to do some computations on both spring and bar and see where it sits.  I think I'll be fine with another 100 or so lbs of spring rate front and back with struts to match as this will be more than the HD's can handle (according to guys who've done it).  I really should get a working computer model of the suspension done ASAP and do some thinking.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: MurrayPeterson on August 24, 2015, 08:43:24 PM
It's early days in your driving -- don't worry too much about your car, and worry more about your driving skills.  Of course, if you enjoy tinkering with the car, go for it -- just don't fall into the trap of believing that it will "magically" make you faster.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: majormojo on August 25, 2015, 01:53:54 PM
I'll have to do some computations on both spring and bar and see where it sits.  I think I'll be fine with another 100 or so lbs of spring rate front and back with struts to match as this will be more than the HD's can handle (according to guys who've done it).  I really should get a working computer model of the suspension done ASAP and do some thinking.
To give you an idea from my experience with the Miata, they start out with springs around ~180/150 lbs or so. In street prepared classes, rates of 700-800/300-400 F/R are common, plus a MUCH stiffer front bar. Spec Miata springs are 700/325 if I recall. So you should quite possibly be looking at springs that are multiple times stiffer than the OEM rates. Your HD's can be revalved by Bilstein or a number of others. Since you've converted to std 2.5in race springs, it's relatively easy to experiment.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on September 25, 2015, 10:20:52 AM
Man - this sucks.  Looks like we're done for the year.  I really wanted to make it out last week and next weekend at Fort Macleod.  I was having some pretty bad engine tune issues at the Nationals (and before really) and have changed out a few more parts to try to track down what's going on.  To no avail.  So I went to our local dyno shop yesterday for some analysis and here's the results.


(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150924_163510_zps1dtbdfrr.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20150924_163510_zps1dtbdfrr.jpg.html)

No one's complaining about the pink line (that's a second gear pull) - making 208 WHP with 208 lb/ft torque (lower than the nonsense pulls).  It's that blue line that's causing the pause.  There's something wrong and I'm fairly certain it's turbo related.  It'll take me a while to figure it out and then get things back to where I should be racing the car.  There is no sense having it misbehave and risk blowing the thing up. 

So it looks like I'll be seeing you all again in the spring (maybe in the winter for ice racing/winter driving fun?).
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on February 08, 2016, 07:05:39 PM
Got the engine tuned this fall - it was a faulty ECU.  Took a long time to sort it out as ECU problems are like chasing your tail.  Next up is new suspension bits and pieces to take advantage of new 200 tread wear tires for the spring. 

Only one little problem.  UPS managed to damaged the packaging from Bilstein and loose on of my custom valved rear shocks!  These will be matched to the higher spring rates that I was running late last year and I'll be doing some more fiddling around with suspension geometry a bit more but not much.

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/242/Suspension/IMG_20160208_170520_zpsqaf3dnlm.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/242/Suspension/IMG_20160208_170520_zpsqaf3dnlm.jpg.html)
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: nnywg on February 10, 2016, 10:05:33 AM
Only one little problem.  UPS managed to damaged the packaging from Bilstein and loose on of my custom valved rear shocks!

Yikes!
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Stuart on February 10, 2016, 11:53:18 AM
Could be worse when dealing with UPS.
http://thegarage.jalopnik.com/how-ups-screwed-a-popular-youtube-car-guy-out-of-10-00-1738255686
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on February 10, 2016, 02:28:43 PM
Actually - that's pretty much my story so far with UPS.  Bilstein USA have been stand-up and while I would have bought their shocks anyway for future cars, the way they have been dealing with this problem so far has been outstanding.  While I still wait for any response from UPS, Bilstein has begun to remake my shock based on the dyno plots they had for the first set and will provide me with both (I like data - on my car and with my limited experience, I won't be able to tell the difference if it's small).  They immediately put the replacement into production and will deal with UPS.  I won't get charged for the replacement or shipping.  Now I'm sure if they send it UPS, I'll get a brokerage and tax charge.  I'm prepared to fight them over that cost.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on May 13, 2016, 07:08:57 AM
Here we go again...ECU has died again.  Seems like the ground in the ECU that runs the main power and fuel pumps is gone (a known issue with these things).  No one has a spare.  So my car sits dead and it looks like I won't be making it to the start line on the weekend. 

Time for a stand-alone ECU? :-[
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: nnywg on May 13, 2016, 09:57:22 AM
sounds like it's time for a stand-alone ECU.  Bummer, I was looking forward to seeing this thing.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on May 13, 2016, 04:12:13 PM
I had it working for a bit...then not.  It's an electrical gremlin.  If I can sort it out, I'll be out.  Otherwise, I'll be parked until I can sort it out fully.  It has to be ready to roll for June's school.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on May 13, 2016, 08:48:46 PM
Tracked it down...won't be out first thing it the AM for practice, but will try to get there as soon as I can to help out before we run.  Stoked to have it sorted out.  Also fabricated and installed a lower chassis brace.

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/242/Suspension/13118899_10207784154376404_2874882755171635722_n_zpsrtilgffg.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/242/Suspension/13118899_10207784154376404_2874882755171635722_n_zpsrtilgffg.jpg.html)

(http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab189/grpA_240/242/Suspension/IMG_20160513_145322_zpsg6xav1r6.jpg) (http://s862.photobucket.com/user/grpA_240/media/242/Suspension/IMG_20160513_145322_zpsg6xav1r6.jpg.html)

These tie in the rear of the lower control arm mount to the cross member.  There is even a Volvo PN for factory versions.  Sure does sharpen up the turn in.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Reijo on May 13, 2016, 08:55:20 PM
Good stuff!
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on May 26, 2016, 08:06:44 PM
Quick update...I think we may have found the cause of the tail-happy nature of this car.  I was down in the novice school again at event #2 to get more feedback from the hot shoe's and whatever the cause, we could all agree that the car was loose.  Tom told me to put more air in the tires - but someone else told me to take air out of the rear tires.  Letting air out was easier and it did manage to balance the car, but it was still a slippery handful. 

So in further conversation with Tom - I jacked the pressures up...way up.  Bingo.  That works.  I tried it the other day and noticed that my brakes felt more effective, corner grip seemed better.  I went from 36/30 PSI F/R to 48/46 PSI F/R.  We couldn't really test it in all situations, but it sure did feel better to me.  We'll see at the school in a few weeks. 
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: NickST on May 26, 2016, 09:31:42 PM
Have you been chalking your tires at events at all? I use this method to figure out where to set my tire pressures, I find even being down more than 2psi from my optional range can make the rear get incredibly loose.
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on May 26, 2016, 09:46:53 PM
Yup - every event so far. I even had others look and the chalk looked fine.  i was told these tires have pretty stiff side walls and there's my proof.  I took temp measurements with my tire pyrometer under the tread surface.  This is a much better way to set tire pressures. 
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: NickST on May 26, 2016, 09:54:55 PM
Interesting, what kind of tires are you running?
Title: Re: What Next: Tuning an old Volvo
Post by: Canuck on May 26, 2016, 10:05:14 PM
BFG Sport Comp-2's...an equally long story as I was hoping to buy RE-71R's but they were sold out, then it was the next best thing in a size I could get. I was not rolling over much on the sidewalls, but I was only feathering the outer edges of the tire...nothing in the middle.  At the higher pressures, I was getting consistent temperatures today.  It wasn't like a run - but it was the best that Tom and I could do.  At one point we dropped 2 psi and went from hooked up to loose.  So I'm guessing they have a smallish window.