S.A.S.C.

Solo => Technical Talk => Topic started by: kaho on June 25, 2017, 01:49:30 PM

Title: Car question
Post by: kaho on June 25, 2017, 01:49:30 PM
Took a look at the rules for street class cars already, but just want to make sure with the longer-standing guys here. I have plans to obtain a 2000-05 Celica GTS for autocross. Would there be any issues with running a 00-03 TRD package/04-05 Tsunami edition within H street?

These packages include a body kit (my main question regarding H street compliance) and suede seats but these would be considered options offered by original manufacturer. Similarly, if I have a non factory kitted GTS, would I be ok putting the TRD/Tsunami suede seats in it?
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: Midnightsky on June 25, 2017, 03:02:57 PM
definitely A-mod, get a real car, buy a Mazda 8)

Just kidding lol, sorry I couldn't resist ;)

Not sure how that would work, to me factory kits on lower end economy cars are nothing more than looks and shouldn't affect the aerodynamic properties on said vehicle.  Now usually if there is a specific model/trim that did have special consideration by the SCCA it would be listed.  I think the new special edition BRZ falls into that category but that was more so because of performance items that were adjusted/changed by Subaru from the factory. 

I would try to find one that already has everything on the car from factory and that way there is no debate on if it was added later and if that changes your car classification for autocross.  Personally I think the SCCA needs to ease up on the rules for such things as 90% of the time there is no advantage gained, just added weight which is actually a disadvantage. 
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: E6Cueman on June 25, 2017, 05:12:42 PM
Took a look at the rules for street class cars already, but just want to make sure with the longer-standing guys here. I have plans to obtain a 2000-05 Celica GTS for autocross. Would there be any issues with running a 00-03 TRD package/04-05 Tsunami edition within H street?

These packages include a body kit (my main question regarding H street compliance) and suede seats but these would be considered options offered by original manufacturer. Similarly, if I have a non factory kitted GTS, would I be ok putting the TRD/Tsunami suede seats in it?

I don't believe the GT-S was ever offered with either the TRD or Tsunami package body parts, so unfortunately, fitting them to a GT-S takes you out of Street class... and maybe even straight out of Street Touring.  You might however be able to make an argument that the seat swap falls inside the "comfort and convenience" rule allowances with Street class.

On a side note, I think results a decade ago demonstrated that the GT was actually the faster auto-x car in many cases, with more usable torque and a longer second gear.





Title: Re: Car question
Post by: PedalFaster on June 25, 2017, 07:18:23 PM
I don't have any input on the legality of those kits, but did want to point out that a) the Celica GT-S is classed in GS, not HS, and b) some nutcase from Seattle brought out a GT-S one year claiming it was faster, and the next year the defending national champion swapped his GT for a GT-S and declared his agreement with the nutty Seattleite. 🙂
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: Reijo on June 25, 2017, 07:28:20 PM
I think we are all assuming this is not a JDM, so is it a domestic? 

Also only trunk kits were for a Miata in '07, and the FRS which also kicked the FRS into another class.  And I think a Solstace ... can't remember any others for sure not the Celica.

So any springs etc. in the TRD would not be legal ... as per Stephen's commentary.

R
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: E6Cueman on June 26, 2017, 07:44:18 AM
I don't have any input on the legality of those kits, but did want to point out that a) the Celica GT-S is classed in GS, not HS, and b) some nutcase from Seattle brought out a GT-S one year claiming it was faster, and the next year the defending national champion swapped his GT for a GT-S and declared his agreement with the nutty Seattleite. 🙂

Ha!  Well there.
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: kaho on June 26, 2017, 04:13:34 PM
Thanks for the clear-up guys. I looked into the HS pages and found Celica [FWD] and didn't realize they have separated the newer generation (both trim levels) into the higher class.

On the contrary, an RSX Type S (being an even more aggressive vehicle than the new celica) stayed within HS. I wonder what's the rationale for that...

As for the Tsunami edition, they came with both GT and GT-S trims. No suspension upgrades. Just thinking of one because they are rare and look stunning (Gonna also be my daily not just a track car). It is not a JDM, just that very small numbers were made. (359 according to a quick google search, not that it matters much)

I dragged a couple pics and info online just for more clarification:
http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=359009
https://www.celicahobby.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/281595/re-thinking-of-purchasing-a-2005-celica-gts-tsunami-what-to.html
(https://www.celicahobby.com/ubbthreads/attach/1870248100-569763_10_full.jpg)
(https://www.celicahobby.com/ubbthreads/attach/1870248050-556801_3_full.jpg)
(https://www.celicahobby.com/ubbthreads/attach/1870248057-556801_6_full.jpg)
(https://www.celicahobby.com/ubbthreads/attach/1870248061-556801_4_full.jpg)

From the looks of it though, it seems like I would fare better in the autoX environment if I have a RSX-S with 0.786 PAX vs a Celica with 0.793.
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: Midnightsky on June 26, 2017, 06:29:45 PM
At the end of the day if your just starting out into autocross I wouldn't worry about class and pax.  Your best bet is to get the car you like the best since you will be the one who has to drive it on the daily.   Modify however you wish and don't worry about class until you have some seat time under your belt and have a good idea of where you stand as a driver. At that time you can start digging deeper into class and PAX to see if its even worth it with a Celia or RSX.  Personally I doubt there is any H-street cars that can beat our top 10 PAX drivers within the club.  Maybe Nick's Fiesta ST?
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: E6Cueman on June 27, 2017, 07:35:54 AM
From the looks of it though, it seems like I would fare better in the autoX environment if I have a RSX-S with 0.786 PAX vs a Celica with 0.793.

Not necessarily.  The RSX has never been a great autox car.  The Celica does a few things better despite not having a K20.  Whether the Celica does them better than the current class kings is another matter, but I think it's worth trying.  If you are a student of driving, and come on the right tire, I think you will find meaningful competition. 
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: kaho on July 03, 2017, 05:52:54 PM
Thanks for clearing that up guys! As usual, when one question gets sorted out, another question always come up...*drum rolls*

Has a Toyota Starlet ever been offered in north America? This car was listed on the Hstreet list not followed by (NOC). I know that JDMs normally get classed hard which means for example a stock JDM celica may not be classed the same as a USDM Celica. (Correct me if I'm wrong) but if they specifically put a JDM only car in the list wouldn't it just stay in that class? Also found a similar circumstance with the Mazda Cosmo, didn't know it was ever offered in NA.

I would like to know where would a JDM Starlet Glanza V be classed to. Thanks.
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: JCS on July 03, 2017, 07:44:10 PM
Thanks for clearing that up guys! As usual, when one question gets sorted out, another question always come up...*drum rolls*

Has a Toyota Starlet ever been offered in north America? This car was listed on the Hstreet list not followed by (NOC). I know that JDMs normally get classed hard which means for example a stock JDM celica may not be classed the same as a USDM Celica. (Correct me if I'm wrong) but if they specifically put a JDM only car in the list wouldn't it just stay in that class? Also found a similar circumstance with the Mazda Cosmo, didn't know it was ever offered in NA.

I would like to know where would a JDM Starlet Glanza V be classed to. Thanks.

Not the type of starlet you're thinking of, but the very early 80's RWD ones did exist in North America at some point.  Go the Celica, it's light, the 2zzge is a great engine and one of the best handling FWD cars ever built.  You'd have a lot of fun in it.  Only modification I'd recommend is tires, and I was on the fence about RE71R's till this weekend, but consider me a convert.
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: SKI-R on July 03, 2017, 10:35:54 PM
You must be serious about wanting a Toyota, Honda, import - otherwise, just go buy Chris's Focus for $1500 and run the crap out of it until you improve as a driver.  You'll spend at least that much modding a daily to get it where you want - 40-50% in tires alone!
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: Midnightsky on July 03, 2017, 11:51:47 PM
You must be serious about wanting a Toyota, Honda, import - otherwise, just go buy Chris's Focus for $1500 and run the crap out of it until you improve as a driver.  You'll spend at least that much modding a daily to get it where you want - 40-50% in tires alone!

^^^^^^^^ This

That Focus is about 5 seconds faster than my 2017 Mazda 3 and I will spend at least $1500 trying to close that 5 second gap.  If I had $1500 and somewhere to store that thing Id have already bought it myself.  If you have the option, take that Focus and you'll learn so much more in seat time than trying to mod something else to go faster.  You will save a ton of money this way and last I checked money doesn't grow on trees, unless your holding out on us :P
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: JCS on July 04, 2017, 10:10:55 AM
You must be serious about wanting a Toyota, Honda, import - otherwise, just go buy Chris's Focus for $1500 and run the crap out of it until you improve as a driver.  You'll spend at least that much modding a daily to get it where you want - 40-50% in tires alone!

^^^^^^^^ This

That Focus is about 5 seconds faster than my 2017 Mazda 3 and I will spend at least $1500 trying to close that 5 second gap.  If I had $1500 and somewhere to store that thing Id have already bought it myself.  If you have the option, take that Focus and you'll learn so much more in seat time than trying to mod something else to go faster.  You will save a ton of money this way and last I checked money doesn't grow on trees, unless your holding out on us :P

This is pretty good advice, especially since the focus comes with a set of RE71R.
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: zero10 on July 04, 2017, 11:49:04 AM
You must be serious about wanting a Toyota, Honda, import - otherwise, just go buy Chris's Focus for $1500 and run the crap out of it until you improve as a driver.  You'll spend at least that much modding a daily to get it where you want - 40-50% in tires alone!

^^^^^^^^ This

That Focus is about 5 seconds faster than my 2017 Mazda 3 and I will spend at least $1500 trying to close that 5 second gap.  If I had $1500 and somewhere to store that thing Id have already bought it myself.  If you have the option, take that Focus and you'll learn so much more in seat time than trying to mod something else to go faster.  You will save a ton of money this way and last I checked money doesn't grow on trees, unless your holding out on us :P

This is pretty good advice, especially since the focus comes with a set of RE71R.


As the seller of said focus - thanks for the marketing guys!  That was totally not coerced! (We'lll discuss payment later)

As for the focus, sorry to sort of advertise here, but my intention with selling it was to see it go to somebody who is looking to get into the sport.  The car isn't perfect - honestly, it's pretty ugly, and it needs a couple things, though the longer I sit with the car the more of them I will probably take care of, but it's a great starter car that has the potential to place well.  Even if you leave it in STF (where it currently resides) it often breaks into the top 10 at events with me piloting it, and I know for a fact when Steffan has driven it he can beat me by as much as 0.25-1.0 seconds per run which usually puts him 3-5 spots above me.  The RE-71Rs that are on it have just been flipped and will only be used at one more event (July 8, Westerner Park) before I am done for the year.  I would expect they have between 4 and 10 events left on them depending on how gentle you are on tires, but this set only cost me $561 including mount, balance and GST from Costco last fall so it's not like they are expensive.

Midnightsky - I may have beaten you by 5 seconds but I suspect your Mazda 3 has some more time left in it.  With good tires your car should be able to beat the Focus in RAW and therefore badly beat the Focus in PAX.  Practice practice practice, and then, tires, then practice some more.  I've been at this over 5 years and honestly, I still kinda suck sometimes.

Alright I should stop hijacking this thread, sorry!
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: kaho on July 10, 2017, 12:11:29 PM
Once again thanks for the clearing up/advices!

Sorry for the late reply as I no longer have internet at home and with life going on at its rate I barely spent any time typing on the phone at 4 words per minute, hence I only replied with some quick short posts.

The focus is really a tempting choice so far seeing how popular it is in the autox setting. In fact after this past Saturday I started looking up some 1st gen foci on Kijiji and saw some SVT's for a few grand (just window shopping right now, nothing very productive). I should emphasize that I don't have a plan yet to upgrade to any car for at least this coming year unless some unforeseen accidents occur. I have plans to sort out my financial issues before going a much more aggressive at the sport. As of right now, I'm just going to repair the Tercel and tires and maybe some inexpensive work remaining within current class. Optimistically a Celica GTS won't happen until sometime 2019. Just thought it would be entertaining to know a little more about car choices for the sport.
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: PedalFaster on July 11, 2017, 02:35:16 PM
From the looks of it though, it seems like I would fare better in the autoX environment if I have a RSX-S with 0.786 PAX vs a Celica with 0.793.

Not necessarily.  The RSX has never been a great autox car.  The Celica does a few things better despite not having a K20. 

The Celica's a much better autocross car than the RSX-S, for a few reasons:
Optimistically a Celica GTS won't happen until sometime 2019.

If that's the case, I wouldn't even bother thinking about it now. Cars are added to, and moved between, classes all the time, so which car is good for what class may be totally different in 2019 than it is today.
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: kaho on July 11, 2017, 03:47:19 PM
From the looks of it though, it seems like I would fare better in the autoX environment if I have a RSX-S with 0.786 PAX vs a Celica with 0.793.

Not necessarily.  The RSX has never been a great autox car.  The Celica does a few things better despite not having a K20. 

The Celica's a much better autocross car than the RSX-S, for a few reasons:
  • Much more camber thanks to class-legal camber bolts. I ran -2.6 degrees in front on mine, which is a huge amount for a Street-class car. I don't even think I was at the limit of adjustment.

  • Lighter (and very light for a Street-class car). Mine was around 2,400 lbs. if I'm remembering correctly. An RSX-S, while still light, is 2,600+ lbs.

  • Better suspension geometry. Or at least less-bad suspension geometry -- the RSX-S's rear suspension is supposed to have terrible geometry, but I don't recall the specifics.

Optimistically a Celica GTS won't happen until sometime 2019.

If that's the case, I wouldn't even bother thinking about it now. Cars are added to, and moved between, classes all the time, so which car is good for what class may be totally different in 2019 than it is today.

Camber bolts are street-class legal?? I thought one could only change the camber via loosening the strut bolts and moving the steering knuckle within the manufacturer's tolerance range (eg. the slightly larger bolt hole diameter around the bolts). I don't think I have ever owned a car with macpherson strut front OEM camber bolts. Maybe I just found a way to play around with my current car!
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: PedalFaster on July 11, 2017, 04:44:43 PM
Camber bolts are not legal in Street class unless explicitly documented by the vehicle manufacturer as an authorized repair method for non-competition purposes.

For most cars that means they're not legal, but in the early 2000s at least, Toyota made camber bolts available for a number of their cars for collision repair purposes, so on those cars (including the Celica and MR2 Spyder) the Toyota bolts are legal.
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: E6Cueman on July 12, 2017, 08:51:24 AM
  • Much more camber thanks to class-legal camber bolts. I ran -2.6 degrees in front on mine, which is a huge amount for a Street-class car. I don't even think I was at the limit of adjustment.
Well that's something to be jealous about!  :o
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: Midnightsky on July 12, 2017, 03:42:29 PM
Found this about a year ago when I was considering an Altezza. While these are RHD celicas I do believe the specs are pretty much the same for NA and JDM versions.  I found the video to be fairly informative and fun to watch.

https://youtu.be/YpQ4KhUY814
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: kaho on July 12, 2017, 04:04:58 PM
Found this about a year ago when I was considering an Altezza. While these are RHD celicas I do believe the specs are pretty much the same for NA and JDM versions.  I found the video to be fairly informative and fun to watch.

https://youtu.be/YpQ4KhUY814

LOL Celicas won't even beat a civic.
Impressive in the corners though. I think the SS-II has super strut suspension whereas USDM Celicas have none of that.
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: kaho on July 13, 2017, 09:22:53 AM
Camber bolts are not legal in Street class unless explicitly documented by the vehicle manufacturer as an authorized repair method for non-competition purposes.

For most cars that means they're not legal, but in the early 2000s at least, Toyota made camber bolts available for a number of their cars for collision repair purposes, so on those cars (including the Celica and MR2 Spyder) the Toyota bolts are legal.

Is this repair method what I am looking for to make camber bolts legal?

(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b168/kaho4g94/IMAG1662.jpg) (http://s19.photobucket.com/user/kaho4g94/media/IMAG1662.jpg.html)

If it is, I can get an aftermarket equivalent from say RockAuto right?
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: MurrayPeterson on July 13, 2017, 10:07:35 AM
Is this repair method what I am looking for to make camber bolts legal?

Only if that is the official manufacturer's repair manual.

Quote
If it is, I can get an aftermarket equivalent from say RockAuto right?

Unlikely to be legal for street classes -- the bolts must be OEM parts.  Aftermarket parts won't do unless you can prove that they "have the same type, size, hardness, weight, material, etc". as the OEM part.
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: kaho on July 13, 2017, 11:58:36 AM
Is this repair method what I am looking for to make camber bolts legal?

Only if that is the official manufacturer's repair manual.

Quote
If it is, I can get an aftermarket equivalent from say RockAuto right?

Unlikely to be legal for street classes -- the bolts must be OEM parts.  Aftermarket parts won't do unless you can prove that they "have the same type, size, hardness, weight, material, etc". as the OEM part.


Pretty sure it's the manufacturer's repair manual (Toyota RM440U). Would I need some documents to prove it is the official manual or not?
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: E6Cueman on July 13, 2017, 12:30:11 PM
As Murray said, the bolt must be an OEM part.

The PN's referenced in your image, are valid Toyota part numbers...
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: zero10 on July 14, 2017, 10:37:32 PM
Camber bolts are not legal in Street class unless explicitly documented by the vehicle manufacturer as an authorized repair method for non-competition purposes.

For most cars that means they're not legal, but in the early 2000s at least, Toyota made camber bolts available for a number of their cars for collision repair purposes, so on those cars (including the Celica and MR2 Spyder) the Toyota bolts are legal.

Well, today I learned!
Section 13.8.B
Quote
Both the front and rear suspension may be adjusted through their designed
range of adjustment by use of factory adjustment arrangements or
by taking advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances. This encom- passes both alignment and ride height parameters if such adjustments are
provided by the standard components and specified by the factory as normal
methods of adjustment. However, no suspension part may be modified
for the purpose of adjustment unless
And Section 13.8.E
Quote
If offered by the manufacturer for a particular model and year, the use of
shims, special bolts, removal of material to enlarge mounting holes, and
similar methods are allowed and the resulting alignment settings are permitted
even if outside the normal specification or range of specifications
recommended by the manufacturer. If enlarging mounting holes is spe- cifically authorized but no material removal limits are specified, material
removal is restricted to the amount necessary to achieve the maximum
factory alignment specification.

If the factory specs the bolts or modifications as a normal method of adjustment you can go as crazy as you want!
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: kaho on July 17, 2017, 07:39:52 AM
That's sweet!
So I rummaged through the Celica manual for the newest model and found that the camber bolts for the tercel have also the same part numbers as the Celica, meaning I can save those bolts for my prospective next car!
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: PedalFaster on August 11, 2017, 06:28:37 PM
If you're still thinking about a Celica, this $3,000 example in Ontario seems like a screaming deal:

http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=34459
Title: Re: Car question
Post by: kaho on August 15, 2017, 03:55:16 PM
I like the those compression numbers and the apparently completed lift bolts SB

Wonder what's the hassles involved in buying a car that far away. OOP for one, shipping for another. P0300 (multiple cylinder misfire) seems a bit concerning.