S.A.S.C.

Solo => Technical Talk => Topic started by: Midnightsky on August 14, 2017, 03:32:01 PM

Title: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on August 14, 2017, 03:32:01 PM
Last Wednesday I re-learned a valuable lesson in autocross, looking/planning ahead.  In conjunction with that I have been taking a deeper dive into the setup on my 2017 Mazda 3 in preparation for next season which I plan to attend 70-80% of the events.  The decision has been made to add RE71's to the car for next season, I want the grip.  My goal is to remain in H-street but Im not afraid to step up to STS if the benefits can be argued into the PAX time.  My oem wheel size is 18inch and with tire pricing Id like to drop to 17inch wheels.  Now Im told the RE71's fit wider than most tires and as such you need a wider wheel or narrower tire width choice.  I would like to have 225/50/R17 RE71's but from what I can gather I would likely need 17x8 wheels(or wider?) and that might break my budget.   Is it worth spending the extra money on wider rims to accommodate the wider RE71 size I want, or should I just stick with 17x7 rims and drop to a 205/50/R17 size?  Obviously I will need to keep within a +/- 5mm offset for all this if I plan to remain in H-street for the awesome pax adjustment but to accommodate the grip I am looking for with some possible changes to front and rear camber/toe I may just have to step up to STS.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: zero10 on August 14, 2017, 04:03:23 PM
A quick note - you cannot change wheel widths in HS, so you need to keep the width of the factory wheels but can up/downsize 1 inch in diameter.  So if the factory wheels are 18x7 then you can do 17x7 only.

I have personally crammed 225/45R15 tires onto 15x5.5" wheels - though you are going to have a lot less sidewall so that might restrict how far you can pinch them.

My advice would be to stay in HS as long as possible.  I moved to STF and regretted it.  I made the change while chasing more front camber in an effort to reduce tire wear, I never found enough camber and wish I had just stayed in HS.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on August 14, 2017, 05:16:36 PM
Ok that makes sense, I will stick with 17x7 rims with 205/50/R17 RE71's and hold within H-street next season.   Maybe I can get Cam to fiddle with my oem alignment and possibly gain a tiny bit of help there.  Rear swaybar and adjustable endlinks were just ordered so I should have that in place for the September YYC event. 
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Robp201 on August 14, 2017, 05:19:31 PM
Last Wednesday I re-learned a valuable lesson in autocross, looking/planning ahead.  In conjunction with that I have been taking a deeper dive into the setup on my 2017 Mazda 3 in preparation for next season which I plan to attend 70-80% of the events.  The decision has been made to add RE71's to the car for next season, I want the grip.  My goal is to remain in H-street but Im not afraid to step up to STS if the benefits can be argued into the PAX time.  My oem wheel size is 18inch and with tire pricing Id like to drop to 17inch wheels.  Now Im told the RE71's fit wider than most tires and as such you need a wider wheel or narrower tire width choice.  I would like to have 225/50/R17 RE71's but from what I can gather I would likely need 17x8 wheels(or wider?) and that might break my budget.   Is it worth spending the extra money on wider rims to accommodate the wider RE71 size I want, or should I just stick with 17x7 rims and drop to a 205/50/R17 size?  Obviously I will need to keep within a +/- 5mm offset for all this if I plan to remain in H-street for the awesome pax adjustment but to accommodate the grip I am looking for with some possible changes to front and rear camber/toe I may just have to step up to STS.

What do you guys think?

I run 225/45/17 on a 7" rim and it seems to work fine.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: JamesTCallaghan on August 14, 2017, 05:21:02 PM
I've seen a 245/40/17 on a 17x7 wheel before.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: MurrayPeterson on August 14, 2017, 05:45:57 PM
My Miata has 17x7 wheels, and 225 fits fine.  However, I dropped down to 215 width and have seen no change in performance.

I agree with the others -- stay in HS.  ST* classes require a huge investment to be competitive, and a partial prep for the class will never work.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on August 14, 2017, 08:00:05 PM
Another quick question, when I get a rear swaybar installed end of the month, should I be asking to have my oem alignment tweaked as best it can within the oem specs? I doubt its worth much so is it even worth it?
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: MurrayPeterson on August 14, 2017, 08:33:05 PM
The alignment question is one I can't answer.  You need to research more to see what can be done (within the rules of course).  Our Mazda 3 has no alignment adjustments whatsoever on the front, so toe-in is the only thing that can be done.

Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Reijo on August 14, 2017, 09:21:24 PM
Alignment is worthwhile .... even without adjustments you can still loosen all the mounting bolts and get some extra negative camber which will give better performance and less tire wear on the track.

R
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Reijo on August 14, 2017, 09:23:33 PM
Alignment is worthwhile .... even without adjustments you can still loosen all the mounting bolts and get some extra negative camber which will give better performance and less tire wear on the track.

R
[/quote

Actually if you can't tell the difference, then maybe you should also be taking more schools to increase your driving skills.  You can always use a school to better yourself.

R
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on August 14, 2017, 09:26:54 PM
Alignment is worthwhile .... even without adjustments you can still loosen all the mounting bolts and get some extra negative camber which will give better performance and less tire wear on the track.

R

Actually if you can't tell the difference, then maybe you should also be taking more schools to increase your driving skills.  You can always use a school to better yourself.

R

Ideally I want to take 3-4 schools in the next couple years if I can fit it into the budget.  I have more racing seat time on loose surface than I do on pavement so the desire is there to balance out that knowledge and experience. 

For the alignment I'll talk to Cam and have him fiddle with it while the swaybar is being installed. Any amount of negative camber up front would be nice for turn-in, a little toe can't hurt either.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: E6Cueman on August 14, 2017, 10:25:56 PM
I've seen a 245/40/17 on a 17x7 wheel before.

I did this once, but every set since has been 225/45.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: JCS on August 15, 2017, 08:23:38 AM
My Miata has 17x7 wheels, and 225 fits fine.  However, I dropped down to 215 width and have seen no change in performance.

I agree with the others -- stay in HS.  ST* classes require a huge investment to be competitive, and a partial prep for the class will never work.

This is true.  Although you'd be STF not STS which isn't a huge penalty I think at 0.800 Pax.

If I had my time over I'd go with the spring/koni combo instead of the coilovers and stay in HS.


Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: JamesTCallaghan on August 15, 2017, 09:41:56 AM
I've seen a 245/40/17 on a 17x7 wheel before.

I did this once, but every set since has been 225/45.

Yeah I don't think there was any benefit over a 225.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on August 30, 2017, 02:43:51 AM
I am having a dilemma of sorts, my oem offset is 50mm, and I am debating if I should try to find something with a 55mm offset to try and bring the grip a bit wider for autocross.  Does it make that much of a difference? Most of the rims Im finding have a 45mm offset, if I want to retain the 50mm offset there are some previous gen Mazda 3 rims that were 17x7 with a 50mm offset.   Im sure I am probably just nit picking over nothing and should probably just worry about that loose nut behind the wheel lol.

***edit***

I think I may have found my compromise for an autocross only wheel, NC Miata wheels, 17x7 5x114.3 and 17lbs.......anyone have a set laying around?
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: JamesTCallaghan on August 30, 2017, 09:15:51 AM
I am having a dilemma of sorts, my oem offset is 50mm, and I am debating if I should try to find something with a 55mm offset to try and bring the grip a bit wider for autocross.  Does it make that much of a difference? Most of the rims Im finding have a 45mm offset, if I want to retain the 50mm offset there are some previous gen Mazda 3 rims that were 17x7 with a 50mm offset.   Im sure I am probably just nit picking over nothing and should probably just worry about that loose nut behind the wheel lol.

***edit***

I think I may have found my compromise for an autocross only wheel, NC Miata wheels, 17x7 5x114.3 and 17lbs.......anyone have a set laying around?

Going from a 50 to a 55mm offset would actually make the track narrower, a 45 offset wheel would make it wider and potentially be more beneficial.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on August 30, 2017, 01:22:31 PM
Thank you for clarification on my failed understanding of wheel offset lol.  I will definitely be seeking out a 45mm offset then.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on September 12, 2017, 11:04:56 PM
Moving forward with my understanding of vehicle setup, my next thought is struts for next season.  What Im wondering is what members here know of the Koni FSD struts versus the koni yellows.  As I understand it the FSD's have some new technology that allows it to be a variable dampening rate that adjusts itself as your driving.  They are geared more towards an improvement over the super soft oem struts that is soft when needed and firms up if it feels the demand for it.  To me that sounds fishy, would that not create chaos? How can it possibly know the corner I am approaching is better soft or firm? To me the Koni yellow sounds like my best option, it allows me to adjust front and rear independently as I feel the need to go soft or firm before my run starts.  Another oddity on my Mazda 3 is that the rear strut and spring are completely separate, is that an advantage or Mazdas way to make a more comfortable daily ride on various driving conditions/surfaces?

I also want to say thank you to all the members who have given me advice during this process of sorting out my setup. I greatly appreciate your input and can't wait to make it out for a full season with a proper setup so I can chase Cam/Murray ;D
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: MurrayPeterson on September 13, 2017, 09:58:21 AM
All shocks have a force that varies with frequency (speed).  Sounds like those FSD shocks have a mechanism that reduces the shock force at higher velocities, which is a bit backwards compared to normal shocks.  Anyway, they have nothing to do with racing needs.  Get the adjustable Konis.

My advice?  If the car's handling is acceptable, don't sweat the Konis (and the cost) until you get more seat time.


Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Reijo on September 13, 2017, 10:39:22 AM
All shocks have a force that varies with frequency (speed).  Sounds like those FSD shocks have a mechanism that reduces the shock force at higher velocities, which is a bit backwards compared to normal shocks.  Anyway, they have nothing to do with racing needs.  Get the adjustable Konis.

My advice?  I

f the car's handling is acceptable, don't sweat the Konis (and the cost) until you get more seat time.

Second that.  Your best money spent is on the loose nut behind the wheel.  The skills learned in a school also transfer from one car to the next.  Parts do not (typically).

R
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: JamesTCallaghan on September 13, 2017, 11:13:52 AM
Third that. I've never felt the need to change shocks (except my BRZ and I went with fixed rate Bilsteins) because I am too inexperienced of a driver and not knowledgeable enough to tune them properly to help me.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: MurrayPeterson on September 13, 2017, 11:47:40 PM
Nathan, I am going to be brutally honest here -- shocks should be the last thing on your mind right now.  If you must spend money on car prep, then buy the best tires you can afford.  A set of RE-71Rs or Rivals will do you more good than any other prep item, regardless of cost.  Spend your money where it counts -- tires and entry fees.  Get in your seat time!


Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: PedalFaster on September 14, 2017, 11:54:04 AM
What Im wondering is what members here know of the Koni FSD struts versus the koni yellows.  As I understand it the FSD's have some new technology that allows it to be a variable dampening rate that adjusts itself as your driving.  They are geared more towards an improvement over the super soft oem struts that is soft when needed and firms up if it feels the demand for it.  To me that sounds fishy, would that not create chaos? How can it possibly know the corner I am approaching is better soft or firm?

It sounds like you're assuming more intelligence in the FSD system than it really has. There's no computer making decisions on your driving style -- it's just a fancy mechanical valve that softens the damper when there's high-frequency piston movement (i.e. if you're driving over a bumpy surface). This results in a shock that's relatively firm on smooth surfaces, and relatively soft on bumpy ones.

You're right that Koni Yellows/Sports are a better choice for performance applications. Having said that, while Konis are the closest thing there is to a standard autocross shock, I've had back luck with their reliability -- three failures in the past five cars I've driven, including two shocks that failed on Cam's car within a few weeks of being installed.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: 94boosted on September 14, 2017, 01:29:02 PM
Another oddity on my Mazda 3 is that the rear strut and spring are completely separate, is that an advantage or Mazdas way to make a more comfortable daily ride on various driving conditions/surfaces?

I wouldn't say that's odd, most fwd cars will have a rear suspension where the shock and spring are separate (your Cobalt was like this too) most commonly arranged in a torsion bar style suspension. Though I think your Mazda 3 uses some sort of a Ford designed multilink suspension in the rear.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Terry Johns on September 14, 2017, 07:28:00 PM
Its great to have you in the club  :)
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on September 15, 2017, 07:37:23 AM
RE71R's on separate rims are definitely in my plans for next season.  I wanted to hear about the FSD's as it was a little confusing in my head, thank you for clearing that up, as well with the rear suspension.  Top of my list for next season is seat time seat time seat time :) want to spend as much time behind the wheel as I can.  The Koni yellows will be a bonus next season if I can afford it.  My swaybar and endlinks have arrived, just scrounging the last few dollars to go have them installed.  Hopefully the weather co-operates and I can make the final Oct 15th event with my new swaybar.  That will probably be all the tread I have left anyway, then its onto studded winters and looking towards Ghost Lake :)

A big thank you again to everyone here for the help/advice/info, I greatly appreciate the support it means alot to have that 8)
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: kaho on September 15, 2017, 11:58:31 AM
RE71R's on separate rims are definitely in my plans for next season.  I wanted to hear about the FSD's as it was a little confusing in my head, thank you for clearing that up, as well with the rear suspension.  Top of my list for next season is seat time seat time seat time :) want to spend as much time behind the wheel as I can.  The Koni yellows will be a bonus next season if I can afford it.  My swaybar and endlinks have arrived, just scrounging the last few dollars to go have them installed.  Hopefully the weather co-operates and I can make the final Oct 15th event with my new swaybar.  That will probably be all the tread I have left anyway, then its onto studded winters and looking towards Ghost Lake :)

A big thank you again to everyone here for the help/advice/info, I greatly appreciate the support it means alot to have that 8)

Did you buy the sway bar online? How much did it cost you?
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Tuna on September 15, 2017, 01:57:25 PM
RE71R's on separate rims are definitely in my plans for next season.  I wanted to hear about the FSD's as it was a little confusing in my head, thank you for clearing that up, as well with the rear suspension.  Top of my list for next season is seat time seat time seat time :) want to spend as much time behind the wheel as I can.  The Koni yellows will be a bonus next season if I can afford it.  My swaybar and endlinks have arrived, just scrounging the last few dollars to go have them installed.  Hopefully the weather co-operates and I can make the final Oct 15th event with my new swaybar.  That will probably be all the tread I have left anyway, then its onto studded winters and looking towards Ghost Lake :)

A big thank you again to everyone here for the help/advice/info, I greatly appreciate the support it means alot to have that 8)
If the sway bar is anything like my Focus I can do it for beer. And teach you how to wrench on your own car for nothing.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Bitters on September 15, 2017, 03:25:27 PM
And if it's anything like MY focus you should clear at least the whole afternoon  :-\
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on September 15, 2017, 05:08:35 PM
RE71R's on separate rims are definitely in my plans for next season.  I wanted to hear about the FSD's as it was a little confusing in my head, thank you for clearing that up, as well with the rear suspension.  Top of my list for next season is seat time seat time seat time :) want to spend as much time behind the wheel as I can.  The Koni yellows will be a bonus next season if I can afford it.  My swaybar and endlinks have arrived, just scrounging the last few dollars to go have them installed.  Hopefully the weather co-operates and I can make the final Oct 15th event with my new swaybar.  That will probably be all the tread I have left anyway, then its onto studded winters and looking towards Ghost Lake :)

A big thank you again to everyone here for the help/advice/info, I greatly appreciate the support it means alot to have that 8)

Did you buy the sway bar online? How much did it cost you?

Online yes, eBay for the endlinks as per recommendation on the Mazda 3 forum Im on, swaybar was direct from Progress.  All in, between the endlinks, swaybar, shipping, UPS ripoff duty/customs, $444 has been spent to date.  Almost a set of RE71R's, but then I still need a 2nd set of rims, a jack, torque wrench, Im too poor for all that right now.   Over the winter I should be able to acquire it all piece by piece and be ready to rock in May/June for my first full season.

If the sway bar is anything like my Focus I can do it for beer. And teach you how to wrench on your own car for nothing.

I may take you up on that, might be able to make the Oct 1st event then if that works out.  The parts I was warned about on the Mazda forum was to ensure the provided bushings are properly greased or suffer from I think clunking noises.  I have worked on my vehicles in the past and overall do not have the best track record so I have been going to shops I trust for the majority of my mechanical needs.  Also being a brand new car with only 13,000km on it I am overly cautious about doing any work myself.  I managed to figure out the rally armor mudflaps and they haven't fallen off yet so at least I got that right.  Beyond that I have not done any else to the vehicle myself.  The exhaust was done by Cam and he did a fantastic job.  My oil changes are being done by Mazda so as to not complicate my warranty.  I know how to properly document it ect and could do it myself, but prefer to leave it to Mazda.

And if it's anything like MY focus you should clear at least the whole afternoon  :-\

Its about a 2 hour job according to the guys on the Mazda forum who have been very helpful and informative.  There is a DIY posted there for the rear swaybar install.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: MurrayPeterson on September 15, 2017, 05:56:21 PM
The parts I was warned about on the Mazda forum was to ensure the provided bushings are properly greased or suffer from I think clunking noises.

Clunking is a natural result of using aftermarket sway bars :(

My experience with lubing poly bushings is that they collect road dirt and wear out faster.  I no longer use any lube on my bushings.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on September 15, 2017, 06:49:06 PM
The parts I was warned about on the Mazda forum was to ensure the provided bushings are properly greased or suffer from I think clunking noises.

Clunking is a natural result of using aftermarket sway bars :(

My experience with lubing poly bushings is that they collect road dirt and wear out faster.  I no longer use any lube on my bushings.

Interesting, well myself being a construction worker I would be picking up much more dust/dirt than most......should I be considering skipping the grease too then? Or be ready to replace the bushings once a year if I grease them?
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: MurrayPeterson on September 15, 2017, 07:59:47 PM
I wouldn't grease them.  My experience is that they should last more than a year.

Also, expect your end links to be "consumables".  They wear, and even a small amount of play is a prime cause of clunking sounds.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Reijo on September 15, 2017, 08:07:25 PM
Mine have been in for many years ... clunking a bit ... should change 'em .. never lubed them.   Just live with the squeaks ... because race car!   ;)
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: MurrayPeterson on September 15, 2017, 08:40:35 PM
I should have mentioned that -- I have never had a Heim joint fail, but they all get noisy.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on September 15, 2017, 09:02:08 PM
I wouldn't grease them.  My experience is that they should last more than a year.

Also, expect your end links to be "consumables".  They wear, and even a small amount of play is a prime cause of clunking sounds.

Good to know, and the endlinks I bought are pretty beefy so hopefully they last 2-3 years along with the bushings.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Tuna on September 16, 2017, 07:27:08 AM
PM me the Mazda forum install link please? I've done enough sway bars in my time to know what I'm doing, but I'd like to see the specifics.

Cheers
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on September 17, 2017, 03:19:58 PM
Well decided to spend my day pouring over the last item I wanted to investigate/change on my car before next season, brakes.  The two things Im looking at today is pads and rotors.  What Im looking for is a sharper initial bite and pads/rotors that can handle some heat.  Ive identified two brands that I think have proven their merits, Hawk, and Carbotech.   In the past I have used the HP+ and been very happy with the bite once they have warmed up but was never a fan of daily driving them from the noise.  Also whatever pads I choose also have to deal with winter and perform decently for ice racing which would probably negate the HP+ from Hawk and the XP8 from Carbotech.  Both those pads would require too much heat to get them into their primary operating window for any type of winter driving and if they got cold sitting in a longer grid at YYC then they would not work as well during the first 1-2 braking zones of my runs.   For the HPS from Hawk and AX6 from carbotech they seem to offer a good operating window temperature wise with good upper tolerance for what my needs would be.  I have used the HPS before so I think Id like to take a stab at the AX6 next year.  For rotors, if I go with a blank rotor and we are running almost hot laps on a hot day down in Fort McLeod the chances are the rotors will retain too much heat and possibly overheat the pads.  So Im thinking slotted rotors would be a good choice, possibly from stop-tech or DBA to protect myself from possible overheating into those heavy end of runway braking zones at Fort McLeod.  Drilled rotors seem like overkill for autocross in my slower Mazda 3 unless I start going to Castrol for lapping which isn't likely for another year or two or more.  Lastly of course I have not forgotten about brake fluid, after I double check with the Mazda forum to ensure the factory system can take DOT4 without any issues, my plan is for DOT4 fluid to protect from boiling over. 

Now I know many will say stop fussing about car setup and get some seat time.  I agree seat time needs to stay top of my list for next year.  But ultimately I feel I can push myself to gain the resources I need to do everything I have planned minus the Koni yellows.   I really want to come out the gate swinging next season and use my H-Street PAX to full advantage.  I will definitely be planning for the autocross school as well to help me sharpen that loose nut behind the wheel too.  I am really looking forward to next season and fighting hard for a spot in the top 20 PAX.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: MurrayPeterson on September 17, 2017, 07:32:09 PM
Your stock rotors and a good DOT3 fluid will never overheat, even at the fastest and toughest Fort Macleod event.  Go ahead with different pads if you want more initial bite, but leave the race track stuff for a car that will be tracked.  And even then, swap out the track rotors and pads only when going to the track.


Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Robp201 on September 17, 2017, 08:18:30 PM

Now I know many will say stop fussing about car setup and get some seat time.  I agree seat time needs to stay top of my list for next year.  But ultimately I feel I can push myself to gain the resources I need to do everything I have planned minus the Koni yellows.   I really want to come out the gate swinging next season and use my H-Street PAX to full advantage.  I will definitely be planning for the autocross school as well to help me sharpen that loose nut behind the wheel too.  I am really looking forward to next season and fighting hard for a spot in the top 20 PAX.

Just curious.... what excuse do you plan to use once you do all these mods and still not be top 20? Will you blame the car? Or will you maybe look at your driving and lack of seat time?
I am no expert in anything but I do know from being on the national luge team for 10 years in my younger days, it is all about seat (in our case lay down) time..... I had the greatest sled money could buy every legal modification to the sled but I was still not fast till I put my time in the sled... took me a long time to realize this, but once I did I was constantly running top 5 in the world....

It's the old saying "just cause you have the fast toys, doesn't mean you can play with them like they were meant to be".

A prime example was this past weekend watching a few drive other people's cars for the day... .. both extremely good drivers but the one with the seat time made it look smoother and in the end faster.
I will never forget a few events ago when James broke the civic and jeff let him drive the corolla, James found 2 seconds in the car and jeff figured he had that car fully maxed and pushed to the limits of what that car would run and some where James found 2 more seconds. And first thing jeff said "dammit I need to drive more to find that time"

I'm not trying to rain on your parade at all, I think it's awesome you are looking at every angle possibile to be "quick out of the gate next year" and enjoy all the posts of people's views but I am still a firm believer in getting your butt in that seat and drive drive drive!!
Just watching my son drive this year at events he is getting faster and faster and smoother each event. No mods to the car at all expect some tires becuas he knows too that he needs to know the cars and it's breaking points before he can be fast. Just this weekend I turned off the traction control just so he could have a little more realization of feel of the car without all the grannies holding him back. And again I go back to and I know sounds like a broken record "seat time"

Also I believe if you change to slotted rotors you will no longer be in stock anyways... I am curious of this cause I would like to look at differnt brakes as we did experience some good brake fade today. 
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: partsunknown on September 17, 2017, 08:25:22 PM
Take a look at Stoptech Street Performance pads. I ran them on my 2004 Mazda 3 with blank rotors and they were great for a daily driven vehicle. Good cold bite (even during the winter if that matters to you) and I never had any issues with brake fade during the +30c days autocrossing at fort macleod. The only downside is that they're fairly dusty

Like Murray said, a good dot3 fluid will be more than enough for autocross
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: K.P on September 17, 2017, 08:49:46 PM
Check out Ewald Performance. In January of every year Frank has a sale on Gloc Pads and they are 20% off. I was able to get pads through him cheaper than I could find them from any US store (after conversion and tax). I can't say enough good things about the service Frank provided and the Gloc Pads are great.

http://ewaldperformance.com/
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: MurrayPeterson on September 17, 2017, 10:21:08 PM
Also I believe if you change to slotted rotors you will no longer be in stock anyways... I am curious of this cause I would like to look at differnt brakes as we did experience some good brake fade today.

How did you manage to get brake fade today?  Today's course(s) were the most speed maintenance (and least braking) of any course I remember.

BTW -- thanks to Tom G for a great couple of courses.  Seemingly simple, but tough to extract those last bits of time.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Joe-G on September 17, 2017, 11:33:40 PM
Well decided to spend my day pouring over the last item I wanted to investigate/change on my car before next season, brakes.  ***snip***

I think you're over thinking it. But if you want to prep yourself for next year, I would do:

1. Good Fluid - I find that Motul RBF600 doesn't last as long, requires frequent bleeds, and easily boils (on some cars) at the track. Endless RF650 is overkill, but I've used it with good results. I hear Castrol SRF is also very good, less maintenance, and is probably less hydrophilic than the Endless RF650.

2. Swap out pads for events - Whatever "race" pad you decide on, you'll always be better off swapping pads for events if it's your daily. I would skip over the Stoptech Street performance pads. Great on the street, "OK" for light autocross, no-go on the track. FWIW, you'll need to match your brake pads to your driving style and overall grip.

3. Rotors - Blanks are all you need. I wouldn't worry too much about heat dissipation. Drilled rotors are no good with high heat applications and are prone to cracking. Slotted rotors are cool, but unnecessary with modern brake compounds IMO.

Have you ever experienced true brake fade after a long straight at Castrol, or at Race City? Maybe elsewhere? I don't think we go fast enough at any of our locations to really experience rock hard/no-brake situations. If you've experience fade I'd chalk it up to over-driving, stomping on the brakes when they're cold, or not standing on the brake hard enough :)

Anyways, that's my 2c from one newb to another  :P
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on September 17, 2017, 11:35:21 PM

Now I know many will say stop fussing about car setup and get some seat time.  I agree seat time needs to stay top of my list for next year.  But ultimately I feel I can push myself to gain the resources I need to do everything I have planned minus the Koni yellows.   I really want to come out the gate swinging next season and use my H-Street PAX to full advantage.  I will definitely be planning for the autocross school as well to help me sharpen that loose nut behind the wheel too.  I am really looking forward to next season and fighting hard for a spot in the top 20 PAX.

Just curious.... what excuse do you plan to use once you do all these mods and still not be top 20?

Not sure where your getting the "excuse" part from, the only complaint Ive had in the 3 events Ive done this season is tires and who can blame me they are oem, but it hasn't stopped me from having fun and knocking off the dust from the loose nut behind the wheel.  I think you have gotten the wrong impression about me. Having been around autocross and rallycross on/off for the past 5 years I well know the importance of seat time and experience.  Unfortunately the past couple years finances have been very low and prevented me from getting the seat time I had wanted.  I am expecting a better winter with my career and better finances to help me push forward for next season.  In the 3 events Ive done this year I have identified some weak points I wish to address, brake bite, rear swaybar, and tires.  None of them are crazy expensive and none of them should reduce my seat time next season.  The brakes as Murray pointed out only really require better pads and Im willing to try that and leave the oem rotors next season unless I encounter some issues.  The DOT3 fluid is a cheap and easy change which can be done with the pads, Ive boiled fluid before so that's why I was thinking DOT4.  Ive also got about 3/4 of a can of superblue DOT4 in my garage that needs to be used so I may end up going with DOT4 for that reason, undecided at this point.  As for the Koni Yellows, I had mentioned before that I was looking to just learn a bit more about them and not committing to adding them.  I don't feel that Im leaving seat time high and dry or over focusing on setup, the two work hand in hand to acquire good runs and place well.  Sure I could start with just tires and leave out the swaybar and brake pads out, but why limit the car if I am confident the finances will be available? Do I expected to be in the top 20 first event, absolutely not, but by mid-season I believe it is an achievable goal.  And that's just it, a goal, no guarantee it comes true, but I want to set that as a point to push myself to improve each event.  Heck if it takes me 3 years to get there that is totally fine, I will keep taking the autocross school each season and finding those mistakes Im making to continue improving my runs.   I am in this for the long haul and have no plans on moving from H-street with my Mazda, my focus will be on seat time.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Robp201 on September 17, 2017, 11:35:48 PM
Also I believe if you change to slotted rotors you will no longer be in stock anyways... I am curious of this cause I would like to look at differnt brakes as we did experience some good brake fade today.

How did you manage to get brake fade today?  Today's course(s) were the most speed maintenance (and least braking) of any course I remember.

BTW -- thanks to Tom G for a great couple of courses.  Seemingly simple, but tough to extract those last bits of time.

Happens all the time espicaly in Fort Macleod. its a ford flaw with the SE model.
Smaller rotor and pad and they heat quick.
Also with the DCT we don't get engine braking like the standard transmission ( another flaw lol) so in order to slow the car you have to brake.

never thought I would be autocrossing so when I bought the car figured it was just to go to work and back ( and love it for that).
This winter we will look at a differnt set up for next season.



Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on September 17, 2017, 11:46:38 PM
Also I believe if you change to slotted rotors you will no longer be in stock anyways... I am curious of this cause I would like to look at differnt brakes as we did experience some good brake fade today.

How did you manage to get brake fade today?  Today's course(s) were the most speed maintenance (and least braking) of any course I remember.

BTW -- thanks to Tom G for a great couple of courses.  Seemingly simple, but tough to extract those last bits of time.

Happens all the time espicaly in Fort Macleod. its a ford flaw with the SE model.
Smaller rotor and pad and they heat quick.
Also with the DCT we don't get engine braking like the standard transmission ( another flaw lol) so in order to slow the car you have to brake.

never thought I would be autocrossing so when I bought the car figured it was just to go to work and back ( and love it for that).
This winter we will look at a differnt set up for next season.

Really hope your sticking around in H-street :) would love the competition from you guys.  Hopefully someone brings out a FiST next season too and we can all mix it up in H-street 8)
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Robp201 on September 17, 2017, 11:50:29 PM

Now I know many will say stop fussing about car setup and get some seat time.  I agree seat time needs to stay top of my list for next year.  But ultimately I feel I can push myself to gain the resources I need to do everything I have planned minus the Koni yellows.   I really want to come out the gate swinging next season and use my H-Street PAX to full advantage.  I will definitely be planning for the autocross school as well to help me sharpen that loose nut behind the wheel too.  I am really looking forward to next season and fighting hard for a spot in the top 20 PAX.

Just curious.... what excuse do you plan to use once you do all these mods and still not be top 20?

Not sure where your getting the "excuse" part from, the only complaint Ive had in the 3 events Ive done this season is tires and who can blame me they are oem, but it hasn't stopped me from having fun and knocking off the dust from the loose nut behind the wheel.  I think you have gotten the wrong impression about me. Having been around autocross and rallycross on/off for the past 5 years I well know the importance of seat time and experience.  Unfortunately the past couple years finances have been very low and prevented me from getting the seat time I had wanted.  I am expecting a better winter with my career and better finances to help me push forward for next season.  In the 3 events Ive done this year I have identified some weak points I wish to address, brake bite, rear swaybar, and tires.  None of them are crazy expensive and none of them should reduce my seat time next season.  The brakes as Murray pointed out only really require better pads and Im willing to try that and leave the oem rotors next season unless I encounter some issues.  The DOT3 fluid is a cheap and easy change which can be done with the pads, Ive boiled fluid before so that's why I was thinking DOT4.  Ive also got about 3/4 of a can of superblue DOT4 in my garage that needs to be used so I may end up going with DOT4 for that reason, undecided at this point.  As for the Koni Yellows, I had mentioned before that I was looking to just learn a bit more about them and not committing to adding them.  I don't feel that Im leaving seat time high and dry or over focusing on setup, the two work hand in hand to acquire good runs and place well.  Sure I could start with just tires and leave out the swaybar and brake pads out, but why limit the car if I am confident the finances will be available? Do I expected to be in the top 20 first event, absolutely not, but by mid-season I believe it is an achievable goal.  And that's just it, a goal, no guarantee it comes true, but I want to set that as a point to push myself to improve each event.  Heck if it takes me 3 years to get there that is totally fine, I will keep taking the autocross school each season and finding those mistakes Im making to continue improving my runs.   I am in this for the long haul and have no plans on moving from H-street with my Mazda.

Sounds like you have a good plan.

Maybe the word excuse wasn't the right choice of word, but if everyone else is saying seat time seat time seat time that's what I'd be listening to that.
The suggestions others are giving regarding your questions is very cool and interesting.

We haven't decidied yet where we are headed as reality is I will probably find greg a car for him to race and daily seeing he will have his licence next year. and then something differnt for me.

Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: MurrayPeterson on September 18, 2017, 12:38:08 AM
The brakes as Murray pointed out only really require better pads and Im willing to try that and leave the oem rotors next season unless I encounter some issues.

OK, first agenda item before making any more plans -- go back and re-read the rules.  You cannot change the rotors and stay in street classes.  And, believe me, if you want to have any hope of being competitive with your car, you really need to stay in HS.

Quote
Sure I could start with just tires and leave out the swaybar and brake pads out, but why limit the car if I am confident the finances will be available?

Second agenda item -- you need to start looking at budget.  If you do want lots of seat time, then you should probably expect to attend up to 15 events (or more).  Assuming that you can get 100 runs from a set of tires, you will need 2 sets for the summer.  Add in 15 events worth of entry fees, tire rotation fees, fuel, meals, hotel rooms, oil changes, school fees, and at least one set of brake pads per summer.  If you plan on tracking the car (rotors and DOT4 suggest this), then you can start thinking about seriously increasing the cost of racing.

You have a sway bar.  Add some brake pads and good rubber, and run for next summer without any other changes.  All of these other changes (including shocks) just reap diminishing (or zero) returns for more and more money.


Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on September 18, 2017, 07:32:36 AM
The brakes as Murray pointed out only really require better pads and Im willing to try that and leave the oem rotors next season unless I encounter some issues.

OK, first agenda item before making any more plans -- go back and re-read the rules.  You cannot change the rotors and stay in street classes.  And, believe me, if you want to have any hope of being competitive with your car, you really need to stay in HS.

You have a sway bar.  Add some brake pads and good rubber, and run for next summer without any other changes.  All of these other changes (including shocks) just reap diminishing (or zero) returns for more and more money.

That is exactly my plan, apparently my powers of communication are weak lol.  I won't be doing hotels, for back to back Fort McLeod events I will likely just do one out of the two days.  That is strictly to ensure I don't wear myself thin before going back to work Monday as my job is very physical.   YYC events back to back I can pull off, Red Deer events if any are back to back I can probably pull that off as Im in Airdrie and it's not that long of a drive.  And never fear, my car will remain in HS for its entire life.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: partsunknown on September 18, 2017, 01:00:26 PM
I think you're over thinking it. But if you want to prep yourself for next year, I would do:

1. Good Fluid - I find that Motul RBF600 doesn't last as long, requires frequent bleeds, and easily boils (on some cars) at the track. Endless RF650 is overkill, but I've used it with good results. I hear Castrol SRF is also very good, less maintenance, and is probably less hydrophilic than the Endless RF650.

2. Swap out pads for events - Whatever "race" pad you decide on, you'll always be better off swapping pads for events if it's your daily. I would skip over the Stoptech Street performance pads. Great on the street, "OK" for light autocross, no-go on the track. FWIW, you'll need to match your brake pads to your driving style and overall grip.

3. Rotors - Blanks are all you need. I wouldn't worry too much about heat dissipation. Drilled rotors are no good with high heat applications and are prone to cracking. Slotted rotors are cool, but unnecessary with modern brake compounds IMO.

Have you ever experienced true brake fade after a long straight at Castrol, or at Race City? Maybe elsewhere? I don't think we go fast enough at any of our locations to really experience rock hard/no-brake situations. If you've experience fade I'd chalk it up to over-driving, stomping on the brakes when they're cold, or not standing on the brake hard enough :)

Anyways, that's my 2c from one newb to another  :P

I agree with everything you said, but it sounds too involved for the OP. I got the impression that he is looking for a good all around brake setup that doesn't require swapping to "race" pads for each event

I only suggested the Stoptech Street Performance (now known as "Sport") because he had mentioned Hawk HPS and Carbotech AX6. While I don't have any experience with the AX6, IMO the HPS pads are a step below the Stoptech Sport. I agree that they would not be as good as a dedicated "race" pad but I think they would serve the OP well as a good daily/autocross pad.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: PedalFaster on September 18, 2017, 08:59:53 PM
The two things Im looking at today is pads and rotors.  What Im looking for is a sharper initial bite and pads/rotors that can handle some heat.  Ive identified two brands that I think have proven their merits, Hawk, and Carbotech.   In the past I have used the HP+ and been very happy with the bite once they have warmed up but was never a fan of daily driving them from the noise.  Also whatever pads I choose also have to deal with winter and perform decently for ice racing

Most of us don't need a trackworthy pad for autocross, but I'll take your word for it that you do. Unfortunately, the pad you're looking for doesn't exist. Ability to work when cold is pretty much inversely correlated with ability to work when super hot -- in other words, true track pads don't work when cold, let alone at subzero temperatures.

For an example, take a look at this chart of pad compounds from Hawk's website (https://www.tirerack.com/images/pdf/product/Hawk-Compound-Charts.pdf). Note that the pads that work at ambient temperatures fall off relatively quickly, while the pads that work at high temperatures don't work at ambient.

If you really need a pad with more heat tolerance than OEM, you'd be best off running a performance pad during autocross season, then swapping out to a more OEM-like pad for ice racing season.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: JamesTCallaghan on September 18, 2017, 09:13:28 PM
My Civic had Carbotech XP10 Pads on it when I got it, and let me tell you it was absolutely horrible for auto x. After four runs in a row, I still had very little braking capability and the car was difficult to drive consistently let alone consistently fast because of that.  I'm sure a AX6 would be better, but I think you should run OEM pads until either you do find them overheating at some point (unlikely at auto x but possible, I did experience a pretty large decrease in braking capability during the challenge back in August, but had four runs with decreasing cool down time between them, and only on the final two corners of my fourth run did it become noticeable), or you find yourself actually going to Castrol.  In which case you will likely want something like a XP8 or XP10 which will be completely useless and detrimental at auto x, and at that point I would highly suggest only running them for lapping events.

I've considered changing the pads in my WRX to possibly a Hawk or Stop Tech street pad, but I am really really happy with the bite and ease of smoothness for my heal and toe currently while street driving and i'm worried I might ruin that small pleasure, possibly another thing to think about with your car?
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: MurrayPeterson on September 18, 2017, 10:42:10 PM
^^^ What James said.  Pick a pad for high temp (track) or low temp (autox) -- you can't have both.

For the S2000, I always used Axxis (or PBR) Ultimate ceramic pads.  Grabbed beautifully, even at -30.  Useless for track, but an incredibly good autox pad, with huge initial bite and easy modulation.  Squealed a lot and created more dust than you could imagine.  However, the dust was not corrosive, and washed off easily.
Title: Re: Tires/Setup Questions
Post by: Midnightsky on September 24, 2017, 02:39:44 PM
Big thank you to Shane for helping out getting my rear swaybar installed today.  I gotta say wow what a difference it makes for such a seemingly simple piece of metal.  Hopefully I can make it out Oct 1st to YYC and get my FWD tripod on 8)