S.A.S.C.

Winter Driving => Driving Discussion => Topic started by: jl5 on October 19, 2017, 09:21:00 PM

Title: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: jl5 on October 19, 2017, 09:21:00 PM
Hey,

As some of you know I've picked up a BMW e36 328i sedan for Ice Dice and was wondering if anyone could offer me any advice on tire set up.

So far I've noticed a lot of people running narrow width rims and tires. Is the idea here to cut through the snow/ice? Anyone able to offer me an optimal tire size? What brand and model tire is good to run for this series? I would be getting them studded as well of course.

Any help would be greatly appreciated since this is my first season, thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: 94boosted on October 20, 2017, 09:03:27 AM
Most folks seem to run a 10-20mm narrower tire than the stock size and a 1-2" smaller diameter wheel (to keep costs down and get a softer sidewall). The CSCC has some details on max studs per tire and stud size here: https://cscc.speedracer.ca/forums/rallyx-news/2017-cscc-ice-dice-series/ (https://cscc.speedracer.ca/forums/rallyx-news/2017-cscc-ice-dice-series/)

As for brand you'll here a lot of different opinions, I'm a fan of some of the cheap brands on PMCtire like Weslake, Sailun, Champiro etc. some swear by the Hakka's
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: chairmanma on October 20, 2017, 09:35:36 AM
I run a narrower tire with a smaller diameter wheel only because it's significantly more affordable. I would prefer a wider tire if price wasn't a consideration.
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: Midnightsky on October 20, 2017, 02:19:56 PM
Most folks seem to run a 10-20mm narrower tire than the stock size and a 1-2" smaller diameter wheel (to keep costs down and get a softer sidewall). The CSCC has some details on max studs per tire and stud size here: https://cscc.speedracer.ca/forums/rallyx-news/2017-cscc-ice-dice-series/ (https://cscc.speedracer.ca/forums/rallyx-news/2017-cscc-ice-dice-series/)

As for brand you'll here a lot of different opinions, I'm a fan of some of the cheap brands on PMCtire like Weslake, Sailun, Champiro etc. some swear by the Hakka's

I thought they disproved the Hakkis last year on the ice, if I remember correctly many were faster on other brands and the super amazing hakkis were getting beaten up left/right/center by the competition.  Now that being said the Hakki 9's are out now which come with some new improvements that may tip the scales back in their direction.
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: 94boosted on October 20, 2017, 02:49:00 PM
Most folks seem to run a 10-20mm narrower tire than the stock size and a 1-2" smaller diameter wheel (to keep costs down and get a softer sidewall). The CSCC has some details on max studs per tire and stud size here: https://cscc.speedracer.ca/forums/rallyx-news/2017-cscc-ice-dice-series/ (https://cscc.speedracer.ca/forums/rallyx-news/2017-cscc-ice-dice-series/)

As for brand you'll here a lot of different opinions, I'm a fan of some of the cheap brands on PMCtire like Weslake, Sailun, Champiro etc. some swear by the Hakka's

I thought they disproved the Hakkis last year on the ice, if I remember correctly many were faster on other brands and the super amazing hakkis were getting beaten up left/right/center by the competition.  Now that being said the Hakki 9's are out now which come with some new improvements that may tip the scales back in their direction.

They were allowed provided you left the studs it came with installed.
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: Midnightsky on October 20, 2017, 02:53:45 PM
I mean disproved, as in they were slower, as is, with factory studs, versus the competitors with factory studs. 
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: JamesTCallaghan on October 20, 2017, 03:10:52 PM
Hakkas are no where near a cheap Chinese tire with 3.5mm studs. I ran Westlake SW606 last year with 3.5mm studs and they were fast.
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: Midnightsky on October 20, 2017, 06:09:19 PM
Hakkas are no where near a cheap Chinese tire with 3.5mm studs. I ran Westlake SW606 last year with 3.5mm studs and they were fast.

And that's what I mean, the most expensive isn't always the fastest
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: JCS on October 24, 2017, 02:43:43 PM
Hankook with a 3.5mm and learn how to change tyres really quickly in -40 degrees.  On Hakka 8's we were typically 60-70 seconds behind Piotr on a 4.5km track.  ON the 3.5mm studs we moved to within 20 seconds by the last event.   FWD Studded ended up being a pretty hotly contested class/

I got for a very soft setting at the front and a hard setting in the rear, I also run lower psi at the front (16-18psi) and 22 psi in the rear all intended to induce oversteer.  It seemed to work pretty good.

Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: JamesTCallaghan on October 24, 2017, 03:13:05 PM
Hankook with a 3.5mm and learn how to change tyres really quickly in -40 degrees.  On Hakka 8's we were typically 60-70 seconds behind Piotr on a 4.5km track.  ON the 3.5mm studs we moved to within 20 seconds by the last event.   FWD Studded ended up being a pretty hotly contested class/

I got for a very soft setting at the front and a hard setting in the rear, I also run lower psi at the front (16-18psi) and 22 psi in the rear all intended to induce oversteer.  It seemed to work pretty good.

I was running 12psi front and 10psi rear on my car.
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: MurrayPeterson on October 24, 2017, 04:18:46 PM
One thing that has been implied ("learn how to change tyres really quickly in -40 degrees"), but should be made explicit:  to be competitive, you really need a dedicated set of studded tires that never see any road use.  You want sharp edges and as much exposed stud as possible within the rules.
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: JCS on October 24, 2017, 06:13:56 PM
Hankook with a 3.5mm and learn how to change tyres really quickly in -40 degrees.  On Hakka 8's we were typically 60-70 seconds behind Piotr on a 4.5km track.  ON the 3.5mm studs we moved to within 20 seconds by the last event.   FWD Studded ended up being a pretty hotly contested class/

I got for a very soft setting at the front and a hard setting in the rear, I also run lower psi at the front (16-18psi) and 22 psi in the rear all intended to induce oversteer.  It seemed to work pretty good.

I was running 12psi front and 10psi rear on my car.

Yours was a very different car, but maybe i'll go lower this year.  the SASC even we were running 16 back 14 front and we were quick that day too.  I'm gonna pump up your tires before every event though James, better be keeping an eye out!

Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: JamesTCallaghan on October 24, 2017, 10:20:42 PM
Hankook with a 3.5mm and learn how to change tyres really quickly in -40 degrees.  On Hakka 8's we were typically 60-70 seconds behind Piotr on a 4.5km track.  ON the 3.5mm studs we moved to within 20 seconds by the last event.   FWD Studded ended up being a pretty hotly contested class/

I got for a very soft setting at the front and a hard setting in the rear, I also run lower psi at the front (16-18psi) and 22 psi in the rear all intended to induce oversteer.  It seemed to work pretty good.

I was running 12psi front and 10psi rear on my car.

Yours was a very different car, but maybe i'll go lower this year.  the SASC even we were running 16 back 14 front and we were quick that day too.  I'm gonna pump up your tires before every event though James, better be keeping an eye out!

Ok but make sure you pump them up a lot because I want to see what difference something like 50psi makes.
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: Midnightsky on October 24, 2017, 11:28:47 PM
in just one tire tho lol leave the rest at low pressure ;D
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: jordan13 on October 25, 2017, 09:46:25 AM
So I haven't previously looked into studded tires but it doesn't seem like you can just buy them with 3.5mm studs. I take it you have to buy studdable tires then take them to a guy to stud (any recommendations?). Is that length of stud is pretty much undrivable on bare pavement?
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: Reijo on October 25, 2017, 09:52:08 AM
So I haven't previously looked into studded tires but it doesn't seem like you can just buy them with 3.5mm studs. I take it you have to buy studdable tires then take them to a guy to stud (any recommendations?). Is that length of stud is pretty much undrivable on bare pavement?

They install the studs at the tire shop.  Just go to Kyle/SpecR since he has them and has installed many.  He knows exactly what you need.

However, make sure you do NOT drive them on the street at all before installing the studs ... little stones etc. can get lodged in the holes and no one will install studs in that case.

R
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: E6Cueman on October 25, 2017, 10:09:31 AM
Is that length of stud is pretty much undrivable on bare pavement?

It's doable... but you certainly compromise dry pavement grip, and accelerate wear of the studs.
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: John in Calgary on October 25, 2017, 06:28:15 PM
Hankook with a 3.5mm and learn how to change tyres really quickly in -40 degrees.  On Hakka 8's we were typically 60-70 seconds behind Piotr on a 4.5km track.  ON the 3.5mm studs we moved to within 20 seconds by the last event.   FWD Studded ended up being a pretty hotly contested class/

I got for a very soft setting at the front and a hard setting in the rear, I also run lower psi at the front (16-18psi) and 22 psi in the rear all intended to induce oversteer.  It seemed to work pretty good.

Well those pressures explain a lot - I played all afternoon on the course at one of the winter schools in February and could not get my non-studded blizzaks to hook up on the shear ice, so it was either brake and rotate on the intermittent patches of snow (which worked very well) or cut my speed down to a crawl for a more normal turn in but keeping within traction limits of my 32 psi pressures (brake and rotate would just leave me sliding sideways for what felt like an eternity).  I'll be curious about what kind of pressures everyone is running (or maybe will let me see what a set up car drives like).

John
Title: Re: Help With Ice Dice Set Up
Post by: nnywg on October 25, 2017, 07:26:34 PM
John my experience was full pressure was fine when there was snow, and particularly drifts/banks.  But I ran in the 18psi range on sheer ice (down from 35) and while it helped a lot, it was still frustrating as beep.

Hope to get out there on studded tires again soon.  Have just the hooptie for it now...