Would you still go to Fort Macleod if it wasn't required for the championship?

[PedalFaster]

Currently, in order to contend for our season-end points championship, you need to attend a minimum of two events at each venue: YYC and Fort Macleod.

I'm curious about if/how attendance at Fort Macleod events would change if the two-event requirement was waived.

I included an option for "I would attend more Fort Macleod events if the requirement was removed". If you're wondering why this might be the case -- if you're deadly serious about the season championship, and fewer people attended Fort Macleod events, it would follow that there would be some easy points on offer for anyone who continued to go to the events even though it was no longer required. 

[MurrayPeterson]

I answered "fewer", but that comes with a proviso.  I am sure that we will lose the YYC venue before too long, since the property is just too valuable to be left as a parking lot for rent.  If/when that happens, we are back to Fort Macleod as being our only real remaining venue, so attendance there is needed to keep it "alive".  Thus, I will go to Fort Macleod for that reason if no other.

Edit: After thinking about it a bit, changed my vote to "no change".

[Sprockett]

I would argue that a minimum number of events is required along with an an explanation to the city (that we have a local temporary venue we have to make of use while we have it) but inventing attendance certainly isn't required.

[Reijo]

A few days ago I was thinking about our venues and the thought occurred to me that we have a good mix with these two venues.

At YYC we can have the big sweepers that we can't get (except for the apron/parking access turn) at FM.  And then at FM we get much more grip (such that I used to run the same shock settings on my Penskes there that I ran at Lincoln!) and higher speeds so we are used to that.  Also at FM we are able to have two full-sized track layouts at the same time like we did on Friday.  The big disadvantage is the 70' width but it is not the end of the world.

As I mentioned to a few people, I think we are lucky to have these two venues.  I like the mix.  Having said that, I would continue to go down there even though it is a bit of trip for me especially (from the NW corner of Calgary it is a 2 hour trip one way for me).

We need Badlands to get built.   

[94boosted]

I've moved this topic to the Members Only section.

I would argue that a minimum number of events is required along with an an explanation to the city (that we have a local temporary venue we have to make of use while we have it) but inventing attendance certainly isn't required.

If we give up the current one weekend per month slot we have at FM I fear once YYC is gone we'd be hard pressed to get that back. The club still needs a certain amount of people to attend each of these the FM events just to break even (~23 people minimum at FM) and if we got rid of the '2 events at each venue' requirement we may have issues even hitting that number (look at the historical turnouts for some of the FM practice events for reference).   

Please keep in mind that having access to FM is a privilege for our club, one that at times has been hard fought to keep.

[Reijo]

I agree with you Tom.  If there are no points at stake, all of a sudden there is a drastic drop in attendance.....about 60% of the Sunday attendance for FM on Saturdays if I recall the past from a few years ago when we had practice events on Saturdays.  Mind you that also meant people had to stay overnight at FM and it took up 2 days out of a weekend.   Some people work Saturdays and have family commitments etc. etc. Others I think are trying to make through the season on a single set of tires (like in the old days when one bought one set of tires and would make it through the entire season ... barely).  So if there are no points available then these people will not attend.

Anyway, that's about all I know about the situation.  Maybe people can clue us in on what other reasons there are for not going to FM events?  I'm sure I'm missing some here. 

[Reijo]

Oh, and in LA they ran Saturday practices and limited the attendance to 60 people which guaranteed lots of runs.  The "national types" were the usual attenders ... the ones who went to Nationals plus a few others who were always interested in seat time and getting better etc.  The practices were always full from what I remember 10 years ago with a wait list.   

El Toro and Fontana Green Lot were both large venues and you could run through the heats very quickly which meant you got a lot of runs on a Saturday ... 10ish typically (because we were always tinkering with the car ... mind you I remember one time I got over 25 runs (32 maybe?) but got tired of running or else I could have run even more!).    I think it was 2 heats ... actually it might have been 3 heats (but less workers ... because normally we needed about 30 people to work a heat down there) ...

Normal events at that time were around 250 people. 

Therefore the practices were about 1/4 of the size.

For me to travel across LA to Fontana or El Toro from Seal Beach was about an hour drive (100 km.) ... slightly less for El Toro (40 min?)... but I would stay overnight at Ontario near the airport using Priceline to get good rates on motels, share a room etc. such that it was not worth driving back and forth.

Anyway, a data point to consider here ...

[PedalFaster]

You guys are talking about a slightly different question than the one I asked.

I agree that it's important that the club take measures to ensure that we continue to have access to the Fort Macleod lot in the future. I agree that Fort Macleod gives us useful practice on high-speed elements which aren't really feasible on the YYC lot. And I expect that, if we waived the requirement to attend Fort Macleod events, fewer people would go.

I would personally probably attend fewer Fort Macleod events if the requirement was waived, as they're long days, and the weather is often punishing. I'm not arguing (at this time) that we should waive the requirement, though. Instead, I figured I'd post this poll to see how much waiving the requirement would reduce attendance. We can't really have an informed decision about Fort Macleod without knowing this.

It's possible that there would be enough attendance to continue breaking even on Fort Macleod events if the requirement was waived. There are some people from Lethbridge and southern Alberta for whom Fort Macleod is the most convenient site, some people like the venue on its own merits, and some people just want all the seat time they can get. If we're able to continue breaking even on Fort Macleod events without the requirement, I'd argue that we should waive the requirement, so that the people who most enjoy and/or benefit from the events the most would fund the site's lifeline, instead of forcing people who might not otherwise go to do so. Right now the poll results suggest that we'd still have enough attendance even if the requirement was waived.

If waiving the requirement meant that there wasn't enough attendance to continue breaking even on Fort Macleod events, I figure there would be two options. The first option, which has been the default up until now, would be to keep the championship requirement. The second option, which I don't know has been discussed, would be to waive the requirement anyway, accept that some Fort Macleod events would be run at a loss, but continue to run them anyway as a strategic investment. I think that option's worth considering.

One last thing: I posted this in the SASC Events forum, but someone moved it to the private Member Discussion forum. I understand that this is a sensitive topic, and thus that there's some motivation to keep the discussion quiet. Having said that, keep in mind that having it in a private forum means that casual attendees won't have a chance to weigh in, so the poll results will be skewed.

[Sprockett]

I find it interesting that we seem aware that there are many reasons people would have to NOT go to FM but still feel it's ok to marginalize the club championship by making it a requirement to incur more costs and more time to do an event. For those that don't feel its miserable, that's totally fine...they'll go without the championship requirement.



I am curious though the reasoning behind the fear the venue would be lost if we weren't there once a month. If they don't like us, having a break or cutting back the events would be a good thing. If they do like us, having us back shouldn't be an issue. Further, even if we feel we need to book the events, the city doesn't care who shows up...less people less noise. Making money at every event is not a requirement. The SASC profits have to be spent on something and subsidizing events to keep a venue is a valid cost. How much $ is in the bank at this time?

Anyway, that's about all I know about the situation.  Maybe people can clue us in on what other reasons there are for not going to FM events?  I'm sure I'm missing some here. 

I woke up on Saturday at 5:45am and got home at 5:30pm for three autocross runs. Work assignment lasted nearly 2 hours in the hot sun and I didn't get to eat lunch until 2:30pm. You can think what you will of all this but I am totally cured from wanting to attend FM events unless it's the ONLY option

And to be clear, I didn't go because of champ points I went of my own free will. I just feel sorry for those that care about the championship and feel like they are being 'FORCED' to attend.

[Type_Yarr]

I agree that the last few Ft Macleod events have not run as smooth as they used too. That's an operational matter that needs to be improved. If we could get back to 10am starts, 12pm lunch breaks, and 4pm clean up it would make it a lot less grueling to head down there.

I voted that I would still attend the same number, currently ~1 event/month. The higher speed elements are fun, but for me, more than once a month becomes a drag. Mostly because it's a long commute and long day compared to YYC (which has spoiled us). It wasn't so bad when compared to Westerner, Deerfoot Mall, or Grey Eagle.

I also agree that the club should keep a presence and rapport with the Ft MacLeod council to make sure the venue is available for when YYC inevitably disappears. The venue may not be made available in the future if the rental income drops and no one is making an effort to message the right things to council. If it's only rented by other clubs, the SASC loses any control over the messaging, when year-after-year, it seems there are a handful of locals who oppose renting it out.

I think it's completely reasonable to keep the requirement of a minimum 2 events at each venue. If you care about a club championship, then you should care enough to make it to both of the club's current venues. I don't think the club should plan to operate anything at a loss, and championship points has proven in the past to keep the farther events viable.

[PedalFaster]

If we could get back to 10am starts, 12pm lunch breaks, and 4pm clean up it would make it a lot less grueling to head down there.

Asking as a relative newcomer to the region: what's changed that's making our events run longer than they used to?

[Type_Yarr]

I'm sure others who have been with the club longer could chime in, but from what I've noticed it's:

More attendance with the same length (long) courses. Run groups used to be ~15 drivers, 30-35 total at the event
Used to be more strict about driver's meeting start at 9:30 sharp, ending at 9:45 to get heat 1 gridded by 10:00

[Reijo]

If we could get back to 10am starts, 12pm lunch breaks, and 4pm clean up it would make it a lot less grueling to head down there.

Asking as a relative newcomer to the region: what's changed that's making our events run longer than they used to?

When we first started using FM (fall 2010), we would barely break 20 entries ... if that.  I'd say 15-20 were the smallest ones and the biggest ones were less than 30.  Now we are pushing 60.  I think we had one at FM last year that was something like 62 entries.

[Reijo]

If we could get back to 10am starts, 12pm lunch breaks, and 4pm clean up it would make it a lot less grueling to head down there.

Asking as a relative newcomer to the region: what's changed that's making our events run longer than they used to?

When we first started using FM (fall 2010), we would barely break 20 entries ... if that.  I'd say 15-20 were the smallest ones and the biggest ones were less than 30.  Now we are pushing 60.  I think we had one at FM last year that was something like 62 entries.

BTW, I have already designed purposely shorter courses on a couple of ocassions when we knew there were more people attending but I have to say I felt like there was a definite compromise in course design ... shorter course = more simple = less elements = less interesting.   But it was significantly less time to set up and tear down (duh?  hahaha).  In fact, I did not even bring over as many cones from storage. 

But the events did run more quickly (obviously).   

[Bitters]

I voted that I would no longer attend Fort Macleod events if the requirement was removed, my reasons are aligned with those already listed in this thread. On a subjective basis, I've never enjoyed a race day out there but that's just my personal experience.

If we are truly of the mind that we will lose the YYC venue, then should we not try to maximize events there while we can? Is there anything besides our plans that prevent us from booking the venue more often? What prevents us from hosting YYC every other weekend during the season?

One thing to consider would be the potential to further entice the YYC-only crowd (those that already never go to Fort Macleod, and maybe only come to Calgary a handful of times each season). Knowing that they could qualify for the season's championship by only competing in Calgary might push local attendance higher. Those that only come 3-5 times a year, may push to reach the minimum 7 events if the championship is on the table.