Clarification on Passengers During Runs

[94boosted]

Per ASN Canada FIA (our sanctioning body)

2018 - Passengers are NOT allowed during official runs in regional or national championship events. However, passengers (as per 4.1.2 and 4.2 below) and instructors are allowed during competition runs of club events. Passengers are only allowed in the front, passenger seat.

   4.1.2 To be eligible to participate as a passenger, a person must:
a. Have the consent of the organizer;
b. Have signed the ASN Canada FIA General Waiver;
c. Wear personal safety equipment as required for the driver;
d. Keep hands and arms inside the vehicle at all times;
e. Not carry items such as food, drink, cameras, video recorders, purses, etc.

   4.2. Underage Participants
Participants (drivers or passengers) under the age of majority for the province in which the event is taking place must also present a completed Annual Parental Consent Waiver at event registration.
In addition, minors participating as passengers must:
a) Be at least 14 years old;
b) Be in a vehicle being driven by their parent or guardian;


TLDR: No back seat passengers and all passengers must be 14 years or older

[Reijo]

We are talking about this.   Somebody screwed this up imho.  There is no such rule in the SCCA rules and also this applies to National/Regional events only.   Be careful how you read rules .. and even more careful writing them ... They were not careful enough in my opinion.   Apparently these are being discussed in the near future at the national level.   A boondoggle ...  There are some other problems with these "new" rules input in 2017 with no local input I might add that I won't get into here ...

[Reijo]

For instance, how does one instruct someone under age of 18 if only the parent/guardian is allowed in the car and no back seat passenger?    The SCCA has added more to this part allowing an instructor as well as the parent ... but that is 3 people right?  Only front bench seats are allowed then I guess.  Back to the '70's!   LOL

Actually in the SCCA an instructor is an alternative to the parent.      But, really what we have is a poorly written rule ... notably for regional or national events....not local.

[94boosted]

also this applies to National/Regional events only.

Doug from WCMA has confirmed that the above does apply to all the events we run not just national/regional events

[Reijo]

Unfortunately this is public now.  I had been discussing this with Doug off-line prior to this and he was going to discuss this with the rules-group (probably the 5 people, if that, who are on the regional reps across the country.  The rules were probably drafted up by one person in that group and then reviewed by the others.  Perhaps not quite thoroughly enough ... which is a problem in Canada with so few people available to run things - an age-old problem we saw when re-writing the national rules when we used to have a complete set).

No, I do not agree.  Those rules were written for the regional and national events - I believe it says so at the very beginning of them.  What you do at local events does not always have to comply with this (e.g. no passengers rule but locally we allow passengers).

Think ... for yourself.

If only parents can ride with anyone under 18, then an instructor cannot ride in the car with them.   And, who needs instruction the most?  Does that rule make sense then?  Guess why SCCA added a clause to that rule?

Passengers in the back seat:   Exactly what is the purpose of this rule?  Does it make sense?   I could not think of a reason personally.   How about you?

In the words, of a past university lab instructor/prof. "Nothing resembles a new phenomena more than a mistake!" ... yep, you did not discover a new law of physics, you just made a mistake!

Same for rules.   Do you blindly just accept them?  Remember what happened in Nazi Germany?  "I was following orders." ... I would suggest we all think a little bit before accepting anything .... I know this is very un-Canadian but maybe we should not be so naive.

So where did this "no passengers in the rear seat" rule come from?

My best guess thus far has been, that like on the road, a licenced driver has to be beside a "learner's permit" driver in the front seat.  They cannot be in the rear seat (where they can see less of what is going on ... back seat driver?).  This is the only reference to no rear seat passengers I have seen or can think of.  So for someone under 18 or otherwise with a learner's permit, they need a licenced driver right next to them.  The licenced driver cannot be in the back seat.   There is no mention whatsoever about back seat passengers in the SCCA rules.  So whoever wrote these rules, screwed them up.  Period.

I already told Doug that this poses a bigger safety problem for us than whatever this seems to be solving (nothing as far as I know).

There has been at least a couple of times this year when I was able to take more than 1 newbie in a 4-door car for an instructor run all at the same time so that they can see the course "at-speed" and how it looks like and how to navigate the course etc. 

Otherwise, I could not cover so many people so quickly in a heat.

I have seen newbies go out for first runs with no one beside them - something we are trying to get away from (other than friends who are visiting with them ... non-autoxers ... at least 2 times this year that I can remember). 

ASN has been crying to us about incidents across Canada and then this rule restricts us causing the single most characteristic of "incidents" in recent years - newbies on their first run (often in very fast cars)?

Can anyone think of any reason why rear seat passengers would be a problem?   

One potential reason I discussed with Doug was perhaps in older cars that only have a lap belt (or no rear seat belts - pre-1970 typically ... if they had seat belts at all which were not required prior to 1968 or so ... ).  However most/all modern cars have 3-point seat belts in the back ... and head rests.

In the end, this rule just looks like a "mistake" ... just written poorly.

[John in Calgary]

So just for extra extra clarity - minors who are passengers (i.e. under 18 but over 14) can only ride in cars driven by their parents or guardians, right?  I just want to make sure before I tell my kids the next time they come along.

If so, we might want to brief the gate workers (or sign-in for Ft. McLeod) to mention it when people are handing in their minor waivers, and its worth an extra mention at the driver's meeting (although that won't catch all the minors who come out for rides since some show up mid day, it will hopefully catch the drivers).

John

[Reijo]

So just for extra extra clarity - minors who are passengers (i.e. under 18 but over 14) can only ride in cars driven by their parents or guardians, right?  I just want to make sure before I tell my kids the next time they come along.

If so, we might want to brief the gate workers (or sign-in for Ft. McLeod) to mention it when people are handing in their minor waivers, and its worth an extra mention at the driver's meeting (although that won't catch all the minors who come out for rides since some show up mid day, it will hopefully catch the drivers).

John

Good point to bring up.

Personally I think of this as a bit of a grey area since everyone has to have signed a waiver or have a parent's waiver.

In any case, I see this as a way of mitigating risk for ASN ... don't take anyone under 18 as a passenger unless they are your kids (wonder where step-kids fit in?).  In a way I can see this from that perspective ... but also a bit of shame in that we are gradually losing our freedoms and getting more and more red tape and rules etc. etc. etc. all that politically correct crap.  Having said that, I can live with this one but that is my opinion again.

[Reijo]

Of course, if you want to mitigate risk altogether, then we will have to cancel all events.   We will no longer have solo events.  Never mind performance rally, road racing and lapping days/time attack!

Or anything for that matter ... e.g. school trips etc.   How can school bus drivers take on such risk?

Sometimes this kind of protective measures and safety bubbles can go too far ... Man, you can write a book about this!  hahahaha

[Reijo]

Anyway, it goes to show you that writing rules is difficult and sometimes unintended consequences can come about if you are not careful with what you write.  It is not easy.  I do not envy whoever wrote these. 

[Shifting gears]

Allow my input here.

As many of you know my 17yr old (almost 18) son Nathan and I co-drive our CSP Miata for the last year and everyone also knows he is a bit faster than me.

Now to the point, I signed the waiver taking ALL responsibility for him when in a venue, whether he drives, marshals or goes on ride alongs which I fully insist on or just sits on his ASS.

Signing that form clears the club and affiliates of any legal responsibility for my son in terms of him being under 18 as the wife had me show a blank one to our Corporate lawyer in August when we started as part of her stipulations on our boys participating.

 He stated the same saying that form does follow the regulations, bylaws and laws of this province and as long as we are aware anything that happens as a result of him being under 18 is completely our responsibility and the form puts Nathan at the same level as every adult in attendance.

Nathan is bound to the same regulations once i signed that release form as every single adult in a venue.

He is my son and i signed acknowledging that I am fully responsible and to make you aware that apparently to state something otherwise in the province of Alberta does open the door for legality issues.


That is my2cents

[JCS]

also this applies to National/Regional events only.

Doug from WCMA has confirmed that the above does apply to all the events we run not just national/regional events

However, passengers (as per 4.1.2 and 4.2 below) and instructors are allowed during competition runs of club events. Passengers are only allowed in the front, passenger seat. 

This very specifically says competition runs of club events.   So potentially this would not include practice runs or practice events? 

[Reijo]

I think they have it mixed up a bit ...

As I mentioned writing rules is not an easy job ...   

[Reijo]

And, ultimately, does it make sense?

I'm saying no.