S.A.S.C.
General Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cagare on July 23, 2018, 08:52:47 PM
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https://www.scca.com/downloads/41702-18-fastrack-autocross/download (https://www.scca.com/downloads/41702-18-fastrack-autocross/download)
S2000 goes to CS and wider tires for STU with some other changes as well.
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That gives me a very bad feeling about where they will class the ND2 :(
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I wouldn't read too much into the S2000 classing -- there's broad consensus that it's slower than the ND1, so putting it in CS doesn't necessarily telegraph a class speed-up like putting the Type R in DS did.
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I wouldn't read too much into the S2000 classing -- there's broad consensus that it's slower than the ND1, so putting it in CS doesn't necessarily telegraph a class speed-up like putting the Type R in DS did.
I agree ... don't think the early S2k's are faster than the MX-5. A bit more power on the top end but the turn-in on the original Miata was always better than a S2k to begin with.
R
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Certainly the consensus is that the Miata is considerably faster. The interesting thing is the price of the s2000 is still quite high given the age so I don’t know that we will see it in any larger numbers in street class moving forward.
I doubt we will see the ND2 be in a different class either in the future.
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Certainly the consensus is that the Miata is considerably faster. The interesting thing is the price of the s2000 is still quite high given the age so I don’t know that we will see it in any larger numbers in street class moving forward.
I doubt we will see the ND2 be in a different class either in the future.
I used to have a '90 Miata so I have owned both (still have my S2k as most of you know). I used to think when I owned the Miata that both the cars were more or less the same. However when I bought the S2k I noticed right away that it was a different class of vehicle. The price was quite a bit more and really it compared more with a Boxster S than a Miata. Would you compare a Boxster with a Miata? Didn't think so. The S2k just came std. with a lot more equipment than a Miata ... more power, a power top, leather seats (std.) and there was no automatic available. It was simply an up-market vehicle and quite a bit "nicer".
And, of course, there are a lot of Miatas around since they were so popular (price point obviously had something to do with it since it was a whole lot more affordable than the S2k and, quite frankly, I think Mazda hit a home run with that car from the get-go).
The S2k on the other hand was much more rare (because it was so much more money?) and probably more "edgy" ... stiffer suspension....higher performance envelope... better equipped and quite a bit more money. It was not surprising that it did not sell nearly as many cars as the Miata. More rare but still a convertible, sports car? That means more money ... and they are holding or gaining value now. Because of all the factors above (and probably more), the S2k is simply more collectible, if you will.
Miatas, notably, if in good shape, are still worth something .... which is the case for any truly sporty car ... particularly convertible two-seaters.
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And the ND2? Well 151 hp to 180+ is a fairly good jump but so is the broader torque range (probably more important) ... and the higher red line ... and the revised gearing. I think the suspension may be stiffer as well.
I have a suspicion it might be significantly faster in an autox although I have not checked out whether the gearing/red line works out to a higher top speed in 2nd gear (which would probably be a bigger factor than the HP increase!).
Hmmm.....should check that. Should go for a test drive ... think they should be at the dealer by now or very soon (think they mentioned July 2?). Maybe we can talk to Sunridge Mazda? ... :)
I have a suspicion that the new ND2 may end up in BS. S2k CR is in AS ... wonder if it would move down to BS? I'm suspecting the ND2 may be faster.
Well, we'll see.
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And the ND2? Well 151 hp to 180+ is a fairly good jump but so is the broader torque range (probably more important) ... and the higher red line ... and the revised gearing. I think the suspension may be stiffer as well.
Gearing and suspension are staying the same from everything I've read, just the HP bump, a very slight torque bump, 700RPM higher redline, a beefier transmission, rear backup camera, telescoping steering wheel and the all important revised cupholders.
Quite a few folks in the C Street Facebook group, some of whom have or currently are on the SEB think the ND2 will go into CS. I've written a letter to the SEB to hopefully put it in BS but I can see the logic for putting it in CS also. If they put it in CS I've already taken the all important step of getting the green light from my wife to trade my 16' in on a 19' ;D
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Just to clarify my previous statement -- I suspect the ND2's going to CS as well. I'm just saying that the S2000 going to CS doesn't mean the red carpet's being rolled out for the ND2 as well.
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Actually Mazda says the torque is broader throughout the range and the final drive ratio is higher (perhaps the speed in 2nd is still the same or close to the same since the trans. gearing is the same but red line is higher?):
Info is here:
https://www.mazda.ca/en/inside-mazda/2019-mazda-mx-5/#__prclt=9rQOVEPJ
Good contingency plan, Tom! hahaha
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AFAIK, the final drive ration is on;y changed in the automatic tranny vehicles. Standard transmission is the same, and the higher revs give it a higher speed in 2nd gear.
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If they put it in CS I've already taken the all important step of getting the green light from my wife to trade my 16' in on a 19' ;D
I don't need the permission (well, yes, I do :) ), but having enough money is my big stumbling block :( There are times when being retired can suck.
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AFAIK, the final drive ration is on;y changed in the automatic tranny vehicles. Standard transmission is the same, and the higher revs give it a higher speed in 2nd gear.
The Mazda web site does not say that the final drive is changed only in the automatics. It says simply that the final drive was changed. I know that has been done on a number of other vehicles over the years to give the automatic more punch off the line to make up the difference to the manuals typically.
But maybe we will need more information from the dealer/Mazda ... time to drop by for a visit I suppose.
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AFAIK, the final drive ration is on;y changed in the automatic tranny vehicles. Standard transmission is the same, and the higher revs give it a higher speed in 2nd gear.
The Mazda web site does not say that the final drive is changed only in the automatics. It says simply that the final drive was changed. I know that has been done on a number of other vehicles over the years to give the automatic more punch off the line to make up the difference to the manuals typically.
But maybe we will need more information from the dealer/Mazda ... time to drop by for a visit I suppose.
I think it's the automatics that have the 3.454 final drive, the manuals have a 2.866. If my math is correct the top speed in second on the autocross tire of choice (225/45/17) will go from the current 58.9MPH to 65.0MPH, a fairly substantial bump. The chatter on the MX5 forums seems to confirm this.
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If my math is correct the top speed in second on the autocross tire of choice (225/45/17) will go from the current 58.9MPH to 65.0MPH, a fairly substantial bump. The chatter on the MX5 forums seems to confirm this.
You sure about those speeds? 59 mph is a very reasonable top speed in second for a car with 155 hp, and 65 mph is actually very tall. I was under the impression that the ND1's second gear was only good to the mid-50 mph range.
One thing to consider is that I always multiply speeds in gear by 0.985 when building thrust charts or otherwise doing calculations to account for tire deformation. In my experience, this adjustment factor produces results that are very close to what's observed in real world cars.
If the ND2 does indeed gain 6 mph in second, that's a huge game changer (and the death knell for the S2000 before it even arrives in the class, in my opinion).
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If my math is correct the top speed in second on the autocross tire of choice (225/45/17) will go from the current 58.9MPH to 65.0MPH, a fairly substantial bump. The chatter on the MX5 forums seems to confirm this.
You sure about those speeds? 59 mph is a very reasonable top speed in second for a car with 155 hp, and 65 mph is actually very tall. I was under the impression that the ND1's second gear was only good to the mid-50 mph range.
One thing to consider is that I always multiply speeds in gear by 0.985 when building thrust charts or otherwise doing calculations to account for tire deformation. In my experience, this adjustment factor produces results that are very close to what's observed in real world cars.
If the ND2 does indeed gain 6 mph in second, that's a huge game changer (and the death knell for the S2000 before it even arrives in the class, in my opinion).
On the stock tires top of second appears to be 57mph with the current redline (6800RPM). I'll check my logs tonight see where I'm hitting redline in my car on 225's but I agree that 59MPH seems quite fast. Good tip on the multiplier.
Data for calc is:
1st - 5.087
2nd - 2.991
3rd - 2.035
Final Drive: 2.866
205/45/17 (24.3" dia and 831 revs/mile)
225/45/17 (25" dia and 808 revs/mile)
6800RPM (ND1 redine)
7500RPM (ND2 redline)
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If the ND2 does indeed gain 6 mph in second, that's a huge game changer (and the death knell for the S2000 before it even arrives in the class, in my opinion).
Do you think the S2K can hold a candle to ND1?
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Do you think the S2K can hold a candle to ND1?
You're the fourth person to ask me that in the past 24 hours. ;D
Depends on your definition of "hold a candle". I think the S2000 will be slower, but that the differences will be measured in tenths -- close enough that it'll be less than the differences between drivers at the local level. The ND1 is smaller and lighter than the S2000. It has a better front-wheel-to-weight ratio. And, counterintuitively for a car with only 155 hp, the ND1 actually accelerates harder than the S2000 up to the point where it runs out of second gear.
The S2000's only advantages over the ND are a) its suspension is a bit stiffer, b) it has a taller second gear (helpful at Fort Macleod), and c) it sounds *way* better. ;D The ND2, if it goes to CS, will address (b), which I think will comprehensively put the nail in the S2000's coffin.
Couple of years old now, but here's an interesting post from a guy who's faster than I am, and who's spent a lot of time in S2000s:
(https://scontent.fyyc3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37735011_10156364548910761_5836260067296411648_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=AeF5M_TAeUg6gV3yyRRnAyn_HUhoKzvxfQYN5HN-eTurgT2iNObqVGb0_xL-3DzL5CfZkb3cOJywFb6HU_Z43hGcnPO9xR-w4tl27VvIYTbmCQ&oh=9fe777d04fbd996b08fd206b3a4bb1b6&oe=5BDF3FFE)
(https://scontent.fyyc3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37784890_10156364548905761_3643216673235795968_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&_nc_eui2=AeGtVrigoajkZvOf_Ny8Gw3eCOrfWaxIEULVKh3PNGnTJcuKY8boWfJLC_tbVDBD57uKPi0UR9Ep6pRFrH5nPDX_GXJFWGmqgR75vjRbQ4Ly3Q&oh=2af7c298d44cd56105b0dcab5afd852c&oe=5BDA3E9C)
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Do you think the S2K can hold a candle to ND1?
You're the fourth person to ask me that in the past 24 hours. ;D
Interesting, after seeing just how fast the ND1 is at Packwood this year I don't think nationally the S2K has a chance. I would wager the fastest S2K at Lincoln this year will be substantially slower than the fastest ND1. As mentioned, the only hope for the S2K is that the course requires the ND1 to shift multiple times. As always though, YMMV.
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The courses at Packwood this year were designed by Karen Babb, and she usually designs courses with a lower peak speed. The ND1 hit redline in only a few spots, and for a very short time. I would argue that the course was ideal for the ND1, and was a bad fit for the S2K.
At our local venues, I would give the ND1 the odds at most YYC courses, and the S2000 at most Fort Macleod courses.
The ND2's higher redline will probably make it the best car for both worlds.
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Interesting, after seeing just how fast the ND1 is at Packwood this year I don't think nationally the S2K has a chance. I would wager the fastest S2K at Lincoln this year will be substantially slower than the fastest ND1.
Two things to consider: :)
1. Have you ever seen an S2000 prepped and driven to the same level as the NDs you saw at Packwood? Murray's S2000 wasn't anywhere close to full prep -- it was the wrong generation (AP1 vs. AP2), and didn't have full-prep shocks, wheels, or exhaust. Also, two of the four people ahead of Murray that weekend had a national championship and three ProSolo championships between them.
2. The first year the ND was classed in CS, the top non-ND was an FR-S driven by defending champion Dave Ogburn, who finished 0.9 seconds off of the win over two days (99.259 using our scoring system). The year before, Ogburn's CS-winning time was still 0.54 seconds slower than the S2000 which won BS over one day -- 99.041 using our scoring system. (It rained on BS the other day, making comparisons for that day invalid.) Stated differently, Ogburn did worse against the S2000s in 2015 than he did against the NDs in 2016, and the winning S2000 in 2015 wasn't even a full-prep car -- it was on stock shocks.
It's dangerous to draw conclusions from such a small sample size, but I don't think the S2000's as hopeless as you make it out to be. I do think it'll get buried at Nats next year, but that'll be as much or more a function of no one fast bringing one out (as top-tier drivers almost always bring the car they think is the best for the class) as it will be of the S2000 being slower.
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It's dangerous to draw conclusions from such a small sample size, but I don't think the S2000's as hopeless as you make it out to be. I do think it'll get buried at Nats next year, but that'll be as much or more a function of no one fast bringing one out (as top-tier drivers almost always bring the car they think is the best for the class) as it will be of the S2000 being slower.
I agree with this completely. I think that the tendency towards faster courses at Lincoln would actually give the S2K's (AP2 of course) a leg up, but the herd mentality means that most of the fast drivers will be showing up in the ND.
I also agree with Stephen about the small sample size, especially Packwood this year. The CS class was well stacked, and a huge amount of fun because of that!
BTW, I have raced at Lincoln in an almost fully prepped AP2, and I wouldn't discount it against the ND1. IMO, it depends on the course.
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The press embargo on the ND2 has been lifted, so reviews are coming out. Two main takeaways for autocross:
1. Depending on which publication you believe, second gear is now good for 60-62 mph (97-100 km/h), versus 53-55 mph (85-89 km/h) for the ND1.
2. The ND2 makes more power across the board, particularly above 4,000 rpm.
Given that it only gained 7 lbs., the ND2 should be slightly but distinctly faster than the ND1, particularly on any course that spends any significant amount of time above the ND1's second gear rev limiter.
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I think that gearing is a bigger "thing" (basically the same as the AP2 2nd gear ... AP1's will do about 66-67 mph in 2nd) but the mid-range torque can be helpful too.
Who's buying one to test out? :)
R
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The press embargo on the ND2 has been lifted, so reviews are coming out. Two main takeaways for autocross:
1. Depending on which publication you believe, second gear is now good for 60-62 mph (97-100 km/h), versus 53-55 mph (85-89 km/h) for the ND1.
2. The ND2 makes more power across the board, particularly above 4,000 rpm.
Given that it only gained 7 lbs., the ND2 should be slightly but distinctly faster than the ND1, particularly on any course that spends any significant amount of time above the ND1's second gear rev limiter.
The reviews not only show it is more competitive but it sounds like an even better summer car now as well. It feels like a test drive is in order.
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Yes ... have to talk to our friends at Sunridge Mazda... :)
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Yes ... have to talk to our friends at Sunridge Mazda... :)
Have people had good dealings with them? I wasn’t going to ask which dealer is preferred in town to deal with. Is there a particular contact people have dealt with in the club there before?
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Maurice Massecotte who is the head of the Service Dept. grew up across the street from me when we were kids ... go back a long ways ... runs a tight shop.....with long-term mechanics. SASC's women's event was sponsored by them as well and they want to do more with us. So, I think it is good to work with them.