PAX

[Terry Johns]

It seems to me that some cars have a huge PAX advantage and other not so good. I seem to remember James C driving my old Caterham R400 and being way out in front on raw time, yet his PAX was not so good, James being one of the clubs top drivers.

So my conclusion is that some cars have a huge PAX advantage, others seen penalized and the course does make a difference. But the driver is the key

[NickST]

The course design and weather conditions seems to have more of an impact on a particular cars times than PAX in my observation

The way they calculate PAX (as I understand it anyway) is by using a huge pool of data, literally the best run for thousands of cars, and then systematically engineering what the handicap might be based on the top drivers. In theory, a driver of a specific level should be able to get the same score in a wide variety of cars despite the performance variations.

It isn't perfect, but it is the fairest way to get people competing on a more level playing field. If we just went by RAW time, the person with the most money invested would win instead of the best driver.

[MurrayPeterson]

Not all cars in the same class are equal -- there are always a few that are the "ones to have".  It's not so much a PAX advantage as a class advantage.  Car classing is just as silly as PAX; maybe even more so

My AP1 is NOT one of those cars to have in BS, but the tight turnarounds at Fort Macleod allow me to use my 1st gear, which puts me back on a more even footing with AP2's.  On Sunday, I thought PAX was working well.  If my driving wasn't so lazy, I believe that 1st place was well within reach, even with my 160 ft/lb of torque

[Terry Johns]

I totally agree with your observation Nick, my issue is that course design has a huge impact, so does a wet track which always creates a level playing field.

I also appreciate that in the end PAX is just a guesstimate

[PedalFaster]

I put together a list of the fastest cars in each class (er em... I mean the cars chosen by the fastest drivers    ) from all of the 2015 US nationals.  They way I did it was I took the top half of all the cars at each event (so like 1300 cars) and then did a huge breakout and filtered out the top cars (... er, sorry again... I mean cars the top drivers picked). It comes out like this:

When doing this kind of analysis, you'll generally get better results analyzing the results of the Pro Finale and national championships. The reason for this is that competition can be surprisingly light at even national-level events in classes that aren't popular in that region. At the national championships, on the other hand, even small classes (at least in Street) have a dozen or more people.

The cars generally considered to be best in class on national-level classes are (in no particular order):

SS: GT3 (although there are a lot of interesting cars in the class that people haven't tried yet)
AS: C5 Corvette Z06, C6 Corvette GS, C6 Corvette Z06
BS: C5 Corvette
CS: RX-8, FR-S, ND Miata
DS: WRX, R56 Mini Cooper S
ES: MR2 Spyder, NB Miata
FS: E92 M3, Camaro 1LE
GS: Focus ST
HS: Fiesta ST, base R56 Mini

If you're not in one of those cars, you're generally handicapped in the PAX standings.

a wet track which always creates a level playing field.

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting this correctly, but wet conditions actually totally mess up the PAX results in favor of slower cars. The reason is that, in the rain, wimpy cars like my Mini can still use a lot of their power, whereas powerful cars like Tom's Corvette can barely touch the throttle.

[Reijo]

That being the case then it would make sense that many of our SASC events are being won by high powered cars, as most of our courses are biased towards HP and speed.

If I remember correctly the Miata only made about 110-120HP on the dyno, it still seems to do ok 

Some more notes to add:   I had a passenger on all runs (e.g. distraction and weight ... a second or more penalty); 3 year old Hoosiers (a couple of seconds or so vs. fresh rubber); SCCA national level CSP Miatas are under 2000 lbs and peak hp of close to 190 hp.  But despite the lack of hp, Cam's car is still very fast:  Won the Packwood Pro the other year if I recall correctly.  HP is not the king in autox, but rather handling/cornering G's.  Most autox's are made up mostly of corners so the biggest difference between vehicles are; the driver, steady state cornering ability and transitional ability ... once the car is "mostly" setup.  BTW, Cam's car is for sale!  Want to go fast?  This is a good option and you can do a little work and make it faster ... e.g. run race fuel/retune for it, or even run E85 (hard to get up here), a bit more weight reduction etc.  You know what is even better ... and arguably even cheaper?  Work on the driver!    Is this a good time to plug the SoloPro Schools?

The CSP Miata could easily have been at the top on Sunday, if we had been "serious" ... no passengers, fresh rubber and more focus (being mentally prepared ... no distractions).

What does that mean? 

Well, PAX numbers may seem to be "off" locally sometimes but really we do not represent the "pinnacle" of the sport per se at a regular local event.

As for course design:  What I have tried to design, sans big sweepers (except on our entry to the runway), are SCCA National level courses such that we do not have to be intimidated by what we see when we run abroad and that includes the speeds.  In fact, Sunday's course was a little bit more "open" than I had anticipated (guess I'm not perfect either, eh?  ) but courses can vary and I could have run 2nd gear all the way in the Miata which makes it a perfectly "legitimate" course.  There are always variations and sometimes certain course elements can have surprising real world effects that can be hard to see on paper even on to-scale drawings and lots of experience.  E.g. I think Roger's west course last year was horrible ... tight, cones to hit on the outside (even confusing for some resulting in quite a few running outside of the cones....dnf'ing their runs ... too many as per Roger's own advice) of a big showcase sweeper etc. ... e.g. against his own advice in his course design manual.  Everyone is human.   And, quite frankly, we all have the same course to run and make the best of.  There is a lot more ... of course.  haha....it's all fun.

[Terry Johns]

Your dead right about Cam's Miata, it looks awesome, I remember Murray telling me the car is just unbelievable to drive, no wonder its quick. 

[Sprockett]

I thought we banned PAX discussions at this bar

[Terry Johns]

Really  why would you do that ?

[Jackal]

My recent vehicle change has finally seen PAX start to go my way.  I'm excited to see this year unfold and what potential the car has with some actual summer tires on it.....Although it's only 10% of the recipe. 

I read somewhere that there may be changes on a large scale to classing (vehicles moving around) coming next year, but that was on social media and I haven't followed up on it any further. 

[Joe-G]

What is this PAX you guys speak of? Jk...

I think it works out pretty well, so long as you're well prepared for the class that you're in.

In my case, Im missing some forced induction and some super sticky tires.. oh well haha.....

[94boosted]

I don't think there is a single car in any street prepared, prepared or modified class that is fully prepared to the class it's in per the rule book, that comes out to our events.

[Stuart]

I don't think there is a single car in any street prepared, prepared or modified class that is fully prepared to the class it's in per the rule book, that comes out to our events.

Probably not many (or any) in Street or Street Touring either. 

[NickST]

My recent vehicle change has finally seen PAX start to go my way.  I'm excited to see this year unfold and what potential the car has with some actual summer tires on it.....Although it's only 10% of the recipe. 

I believe it was just 5%, along with 5% of luck.... the 10% chunk goes to tires!

Although even if that recipe were accurate (which I am sure it isn't, it is just a saying I've heard thrown around over beers), on Sunday 29 cars were within 10% of the fastest PAX time. I think that actually shows that PAX works pretty well.

[MurrayPeterson]

, on Sunday 29 cars were within 10% of the fastest PAX time. I think that actually shows that PAX works pretty well.

I am not sure what else those results show -- perhaps an indication of how well our local competition has improved over the years.  If you go to scores from years past (http://members.shaw.ca/murray.autocross/), you will see that the top 10% was almost always contained within the top 10 drivers.  29 drivers in the top 10% is pretty good IMO.