Technical Analysis for September 17, 2017 event at YYC

[MurrayPeterson]

As long as your convinced I guess that's all that matters.

Umm, are you trying to deny the laws of physics here?  Given equal lateral grip (and equal driving skills), a lighter car can go through a slalom faster than a heavier car and a narrower car can go through a slalom faster than a wider car. 

Now, Ryan can certainly drive better than I can, but I don't think his car has more grip than mine.  So, in any slalom, I should be able to gain on Ryan in the latter part of any slalom where I am not speed limited by my rev limiter.  It's about the only place where I can gain on him, but hey, I'll take what I can get

[Rubicon]

So, Reijo, re: comment that road racers don't make good autoxers, do autoxers make good road racers?

[Terry Johns]

As long as your convinced I guess that's all that matters.

Umm, are you trying to deny the laws of physics here?  Given equal lateral grip (and equal driving skills), a lighter car can go through a slalom faster than a heavier car and a narrower car can go through a slalom faster than a wider car. 

Now, Ryan can certainly drive better than I can, but I don't think his car has more grip than mine.  So, in any slalom, I should be able to gain on Ryan in the latter part of any slalom where I am not speed limited by my rev limiter.  It's about the only place where I can gain on him, but hey, I'll take what I can get

So if Ryan is slower than you down the slaloms, where is he taking 4 seconds off you? in the other short sections, sorry, I dont by it. I dont believe for a nano-second that Ryan is a 4 second better driver than you in a sub 40 second lap, but if your convinced then be happy. 

[MurrayPeterson]

So if Ryan is slower than you down the slaloms, where is he taking 4 seconds off you? in the other short sections, sorry, I dont buy. I dont believe for a nano-second that Ryan is a 4 second better driver than you in a sub 40 second lap, but if your convinced then be happy. 

I am only faster than him after my car manages to get up to speed in a slalom, which is only the last little bit.  He is not slower than me for the entire slalom, so he is gaining time pretty well everywhere.

[Terry Johns]

So if Ryan is slower than you down the slaloms, where is he taking 4 seconds off you? in the other short sections, sorry, I dont buy. I dont believe for a nano-second that Ryan is a 4 second better driver than you in a sub 40 second lap, but if your convinced then be happy. 

I am only faster than him after my car manages to get up to speed in a slalom, which is only the last little bit.  He is not slower than me for the entire slalom, so he is gaining time pretty well everywhere.

Why because he has more HP?

[Sprockett]

You're definitely missing something here Terry and there's just no having this debate when we can't agree on the fundamentals. A 3400lbs car that is top heavy and as wide as a Corvette is debatably even competitive in BStreet never mind the car to have dominate your local PAX.



Also, I'm absolutely not claiming that YOUR car necessarily has any hope on index. But I would say that in a top car for its class that has been prepared and sorted properly (save my disclaimer regarding our altitude) a top driver will index well. Of course the system isn't perfect and can't account for everything but on average this has already been proven the case for years here at this club.

[Bitters]

As long as your convinced I guess that's all that matters.

Umm, are you trying to deny the laws of physics here?  Given equal lateral grip (and equal driving skills), a lighter car can go through a slalom faster than a heavier car and a narrower car can go through a slalom faster than a wider car. 

Now, Ryan can certainly drive better than I can, but I don't think his car has more grip than mine.  So, in any slalom, I should be able to gain on Ryan in the latter part of any slalom where I am not speed limited by my rev limiter.  It's about the only place where I can gain on him, but hey, I'll take what I can get

So if Ryan is slower than you down the slaloms, where is he taking 4 seconds off you? in the other short sections, sorry, I dont by it. I dont believe for a nano-second that Ryan is a 4 second better driver than you in a sub 40 second lap, but if your convinced then be happy. 

Am I crazy, or didn't Ryan only raw Murray by 1.3 second? (Murray 36.8 in afternoon, Ryan 35.5) Or what is the 4 seconds you're referring to?

[Sprockett]

He is sensationalizing things in an attempt to prove a point that isn't there.

Murray was actually only 1.7 indexed seconds behind Cam (which is more relevant) over two courses are less than 1 indexed second behind per course. Even less behind me. Quentin, in a car with even less thrust than Murray, was closer still.

[MurrayPeterson]

And he only beat me by 0.52 seconds in the morning.  Unfortunately, CS has a tough PAX index this year (that's my excuse ), so I needed to be within .2 seconds of his time for the day.

To be honest though, Sunday's courses had me hoping that I could do it -- that was seriously Miata friendly course.  Very few points where I had to brake, and very little braking even there.

Edit: Ignoring the PAX "whinge", I really think driving skill was a prime factor on Sunday.  I just needed to be better, pretty well everywhere.

[PedalFaster]

Umm, are you trying to deny the laws of physics here? 

Yes.

/discussion

[Terry Johns]

This discussion has nothing to do with the laws of physics its to do with PAX & HP. Put Ryan and Cam in the M2 & then move both to a ES Miata and my best guess is on last Sundays course the M2 would be quicker. Which is exactly why Stephen was down in 13th place.

[E6Cueman]

This discussion has nothing to do with the laws of physics its to do with PAX & HP. Put Ryan and Cam in the M2 & then move both to a ES Miata and my best guess is on last Sundays course the M2 would be quicker. Which is exactly why Stephen was down in 13th place.

As Ryan pointed out, a couple years back Cam in his 120hp MR2 put everyone and everything in the ground, so I don't think it's necessarily true. 

That said, there is certainly a difference between our local course design and altitude, from the general average south of the border on which PAX is based.  The index is still king for me though, and the only thing I look at when examining local results...

[Sprockett]

This discussion has nothing to do with the laws of physics its to do with PAX & HP.

Neither has anything to do with this thread anymore?

Maybe start a 'All our courses favor power' / 'PAX doesn't work in general (again)' thread? Then those inclined can re-hash the debate without having to stumble upon it in another thread. Or maybe it's the Line choice discussion that would be quicker to move haha

[Reijo]

So, Reijo, re: comment that road racers don't make good autoxers, do autoxers make good road racers?

lol ... I knew someone would pick up on this.      However, not to rain on anyone's parade here, but autoxers DO make very good road racers with very good car control skills - Randy Pobst being an example ... Jason Isley another etc.  Even some of our local road racers who have done well have come from autox!  Chris S. being one example.

Think of it this way, in autox we throw the cars around with abandon (well, not quite entirely), at the very limits ... basically like qualifying laps - every run.  We don't have to conserve brakes, tires or worry about overheating etc.  You simply cannot drive like that on the track.  Even my stock-engined Miata back in the day could only do a few laps of Race City at the limits before I had to slow down to cool down the brakes (pedal was going soft!   With 116 hp! .. indicated 171-172 kph max. down the 1/2 mile front straight and maybe 155 in turn 1 ... so not much braking needed even there.) and the tires would get greasy.  After a lap or so, I could start pushing again but in the end it would be faster over a 20 minute session to slow down a bit and be able to keep a higher overall speed via not overheating the brakes and tires.

Autox?  Well, you don't really have that problem, except that on "hot" days and more so with 2 drivers, you will have to cool the tires with a water sprayer.

Another factor is the intensity and how fast elements come at you.  On the road course, you will have an opportunity to check your gages, mirrors, etc. on straights.  Ever try that at an autox?  Ever look in the rear view mirror to see if you hit a cone?  Not a good idea.  You'll  probably end up off-course, lost or off-line!   

And, of course, we all build habits.  So if you have a built-up habit of under-driving the car to conserve tires and brakes?  What happens when you all of a sudden go to an autox?

So, where am I going with this?

1.  Well, I'm firmly of the opinion that road racers could learn a few things from autox and sharpen their car control skills by coming out and running the occasional autox. 

2.  In fact, even more importantly, I think everyone wanting to road race or track their car should really take an autox school (or more) and, ideally, do at least a few events before venturing onto the big track. 

The consequences of an "off" or a spin are usually a lot less at an autox than at a track ... even without concrete barriers.  We have had people wreck/write-off cars on their first autox ... more than once locally sad to say.  What would have happened on a track?  The visuals are not good.

But this leads into another topic that has come up and been mentioned in driver's meetings - the recent rash of crashes/incidents at autox's across Canada.  ASN-FiA Canada is looking into this and we have also been trying to be proactive about this issue as well.

One of the common factors has been driver inexperience (often on their very first event!) and then (and I might add grossly) over-driving their cars.  I did not hear of a single "incident" involving an experienced driver (guess we have learned something - go figure?).  If you begin throwing a car around with abandon, bad things can and do happen.  Those factors seem to be the common theme in those "incidents".  We want to reduce them, obviously.  They are not good for sport, people and, of course, those involved.  It is not a good day when you wreck your car.

I think we may be looking and discussing that issue at the coming WCMA AGM in Leduc in a few weeks mid-October.  And, of course, future planning for the upcoming year is also discussed, elections/appointments etc.

By the way everyone is welcome to attend and the cost if right:  Free!     

So, solo/autox people please feel free to come out and find out what has been happening across the region and not just in solo but also in road racing and other forms of motorsport.  Apparently Jim is working in Europe  and will not be able to make it so I'll be leading the solo/autox group meeting in the afternoon after lunch.  There is an awards banquet in the evening and everyone is welcome to stay for that as well.  Most stay overnight at the hotel or one nearby - plenty of choices there.

[Reijo]

Ryan says

because there is no such thing as a low powered and big and heavy and competitive autocross car. In an NB Miata that is some 1,000 pounds lighter than my M2 I would not have had to slow nearly as much to make the left turn out of the slalom while being on the same line.


That's because the Miata wouldn't have been going as fast.

I wholeheartedly agree with Stephen to win in PAX at YYC a 300 HP car is a real advantage, that must mean that a big HP car has an advantage, and by definition the lowered powered car is disadvantaged. Just take a look at the time difference between the fastest RAW big power Corvette and the low powered CS Miata of Murray, who is one of our very best drivers, 3.992 slower, than the Corvette. I buy 3 tenths, or even 8 tenths difference, but Murray nearly 4 seconds slower, no sorry dont buy it.

My argument all along is that PAX isn't accurate and is dependant on course design.

I am more than happy to let any of our quickest drivers in high powered car, Cam, Ryan, Tom, Stephen borrow my car and see if they can beat or equal their own time in a low powered car.

Who'd like to take the challenge???

OK, gentlemen, the lines are drawn!  Shall we set up the time and place of the duel? 

How much tire do you have left, Terry?

How about October 1 at the YYC event at the conclusion of the day after all the official runs are done.

Rules:  Each driver will get 3 runs with watering of tires etc. provided for to ensure consistent tire temps and no overheating.  Other rules such cones counting etc. will be the same.

I suggest Terry goes first since he is the most used to the car on cold tires etc. and would be disadvantaged the least and we will draw lots or flip coins for the rest of the run order.

Winner will be based on normal solo rules with the best/fastest run including cone penalties, DNF's etc. counting.

Participants (let me know who is in):   Terry, Murray, Ryan, Stephen, Cam - any others?

We can compensate Terry for tire wear, gasoline upon agreement etc.

Sound good? 

Any further suggestions?