Technical Analysis for September 17, 2017 event at YYC

[Jackal]

STS seems to be horrendously PAXd this year.....all local STS cars have struggled in the Street Touring Category...

I'd dream of qualifying for an ST class despite the PAX.  My wrong car skips the the whole ST class set (regardless of the significantly faster cars qualifying in that class),  and goes straight to SP.  Boooo!! 

Looks like two narrower wheels (front) will be in my future and I'll try out BS for a full season. That change (assuming I could be as fast) would have bumped me 31 places in PAX form 49th to 18th in this last event.

Good discussion here team,  and I appreciate that it is all done with a dash of humor and in a jovial nature.  Sometimes discussions like these can get ugly on other forums,  and I am happy to read here that it hasn't.  Great community we have here.   

[Type_Yarr]

The issue for me is about course design, HP & PAX not creating a level playing field.

I agree with you.

Furthermore, we should add in car width, car weight, altitude, tires, time of day, temperature, racing surface...PAX has an impossible job and cannot create a perfectly level playing field. We should all just ignore it.

But all systems are flawed.  An AP1 S2000 is in the same class (BS) as an AP2 and a C5 Corvette.  Who needs PAX for screwy results when you can get the same thing without PAX?

Ryan and Murray hit the nail on the head. Both classing and PAX are inherently flawed in that it can never truly equalize performance and course dependency of different cars. Even in spec racing, differences in car prep and setup will have a noticeable impact on results. People will always try to rationalize how the results were influenced by equipment rather than skill, constantly bench racing. Its the nature of the sport. If you want to race where equipment plays a smaller role, try marathon running...

That said, I enjoy the competition more with PAX. It may be imperfect, but it still provides a system in which you can push yourself when competing against others in different cars. Doesn't solve course dependency, but at least the index is constant throughout the year.

[JCS]

Pretty sure Sprocket, that a) you didn't need to be condescending and b) we're saying the same thing.

"I think one of the biggest hurdles is that this index is (allegedly) developed from the results of major events but is used for the local events. At the major events, no one cares about where they place on index. It's a challenge enough to win your class and the class is all that matters. The index is 'needed' at the local level because class sizes don't offer any competition and the sport is still based on competition."

The cars at those major events (the ones you say that PAX is formed from) are extremely well prepped for Auto X, thus you have a PAX for STS (and for all other classes to be fair) developed based on cars specifically prepped for that class where modifications are at the limit that the class allows.

Local cars have one modifcation that throws them into that class, in most cases very few cars at our events are absolutely PAXd out for the class.  Thus, you really are only racing yourself in the local events unless you are buying and building a car to maximize its Auto X performance or buying a leading Street class car (FieSt, FRS, Corvette, Camaro). 

In the case of my car, I did preventative maintenance on it when I bought it.  Where I had two leaking rear struts, I priced out a shock/spring setup and coil over setup and went with coil over ignorant (I never intended to AutoX this car, its a Ice Dice car primarily) that that would switch me from H Street to STS which is a 0.787 vs 0.818 difference.  Extremely significant.  I could have the car performing the same way in H Street on a spring/shock setup as I do on the current coil-over set up.

That one little change would of moved me from 54th on the weekend to 35th.   

Hence PAX is not as relevant for us at Local events, and as per my final statement, I’ve still had a lot of fun racing myself this season and trying to improve my driving and my times relative to the field rather than trying to push a car to the front of the pack on PAX that will never get there.

[Sprockett]

Absolutely no attempt or desire to be condescending.

In the end, there is no system of competition that will work to normalize the guy that shows up with whatever car he happens to have and the serious competitor in an autocross car. I think it's great that you are paying attention enough to the results and having these realizations as it may mean you're hooked and we all want to grow the sport locally.   

[Myz]

Sometimes discussions like these can get ugly on other forums,  and I am happy to read here that it hasn't.  Great community we have here.   

Very true Duane....I also expected things to get a bit pear shaped but I suspect this is the outcome when you have mature forum members.

On the topic of PAX, its a new concept to me.
I raced AutoX for many years back home & all that mattered was raw times within your class & FTD. That's all we aimed for.
That said, I made some decisions with my car this year as my first year into racing with SASC, (or even with this car for that matter) & those decision had me fall into STU. I coulda removed the one swaybar & stayed in a street class but I personally dont care too much for PAX. If anything I wish we'd do away with PAX completely but, that's wishful thinking & Reijo's explanation on this thread helped me understand why we follow PAX in the first place.
That said, I still push myself to be the quickest I can be in RAW.
I set out at the start of the season wanting to land in the top 30% overall Raw & I've achieved that.
Next season I'll just have to come back with more allowable mods for STU & hope to perform better.....Thats if STH doesn't get the approval.

[PedalFaster]

The cars at those major events (the ones you say that PAX is formed from) are extremely well prepped for Auto X, thus you have a PAX for STS (and for all other classes to be fair) developed based on cars specifically prepped for that class where modifications are at the limit that the class allows.

Local cars have one modifcation that throws them into that class, in most cases very few cars at our events are absolutely PAXd out for the class.  Thus, you really are only racing yourself in the local events unless you are buying and building a car to maximize its Auto X performance or buying a leading Street class car (FieSt, FRS, Corvette, Camaro). 

In the case of my car, I did preventative maintenance on it when I bought it.  Where I had two leaking rear struts, I priced out a shock/spring setup and coil over setup and went with coil over ignorant (I never intended to AutoX this car, its a Ice Dice car primarily) that that would switch me from H Street to STS which is a 0.787 vs 0.818 difference.  Extremely significant.  I could have the car performing the same way in H Street on a spring/shock setup as I do on the current coil-over set up.

That one little change would of moved me from 54th on the weekend to 35th.   

Hence PAX is not as relevant for us at Local events, and as per my final statement, I’ve still had a lot of fun racing myself this season and trying to improve my driving and my times relative to the field rather than trying to push a car to the front of the pack on PAX that will never get there.

I think it'll help to view PAX slightly differently. PAX is a tool for comparing times across classes; those times are determined by how well the driver performed on that course on that day, *and* by how well the driver prepped their car for their class.

In this case, you unintentionally modified your car in a way that left it grossly underprepared for its class. That's unfortunate, but in my opinion does not reflect a flaw in either PAX or the classing system. Both PAX and the classing rules are well-defined and visible for all to see. If someone doesn't prep to the maximum allowed by the rules, that's not the fault of the rules. If you think a class's index is too hard, choose a car in a different class.

Richard mentioned marathons. If I choose to run a marathon in work boots, then I'm not going to criticize the marathon rules for my poor finish. I used the wrong tool for the job, so the onus is on me to correct that, not the rulemaker's.

[MurrayPeterson]

Very true Duane....I also expected things to get a bit pear shaped but I suspect this is the outcome when you have mature forum members.

Is that an acronym for "really old"? 

[JCS]

I feel like alot of people are saying the same thing in different ways.  Stephen I am not criticizing PAX as such, but rather the implications it has on slightly modified cars from individuals entering the sport locally.

Perhaps a good take away from this discussion is education on PAX being a critical part to introducing people to the sport.  I really had to go and do quite a bit of legwork to begin to understand how it worked.  I'm not sure if this is part of the school program earlier in the year, but I really think it would be valuable to people to hear from some of the well built/setup cars within street and touring classes what adjustments make a competitive car.

Certainly now whenever friends talk to me about AutoX I am directing them to the SCCA rules prior to them even considering a vehicle or modifications to their car to understand implications.

[JCS]

All that existing in the novice guide:

http://solo2.com/MiscDocuments/Cal_Club_Autocross_Novice_Guide.pdf

SCCA CLASSIFICATION
Check the Car Classification Rules in the Rule Book on the SCCA website and figure out
what SCCA class your car belongs in.

But as we can see here this could be one of the most significant items in the ability to be competitive in a novice season....I'm sure someone has written a good piece somewhere about PAX and how to best prepare a car for a competitive soul? 

[E6Cueman]

I feel like alot of people are saying the same thing in different ways.  Stephen I am not criticizing PAX as such, but rather the implications it has on slightly modified cars from individuals entering the sport locally.

Like finishing poorly in PAX overall versus winning a class of one or two in a poorly prepared car?

I like Stephen's analogy of running a marathon in workboots.

As I said... PAX is all that I look at.  I'm sure there are people below me on the PAX results sheet that drive as well as, or better than me, but I don't know who to tell who they are.  Reasonable or not, PAX is the only tool I have for comparing myself to everyone in attendance. 

It's also the reason I ditched a much faster and more fun car for an easy to prepare and practical D Street car.  In my last car, I had all sorts of excuses as to why I couldn't beat Cam.  In the FRS, I was disappointed to discover that all of those excuses were fantasy.

Now I just talk shit about altitude and course design.

[JCS]

It's also the reason I ditched a much faster and more fun car for an easy to prepare and practical D Street car. 

[/quote]

My point is PAX is not well explained in any way to new drivers and so, as happened to you, and will ultimately happen to me, we have to ditch our cars and switch to something competitive.  See my previous post, Pax, a critical part of Autocross in North America is reserved to 3 lines in a 30 page novice guide document.

[E6Cueman]

My point is PAX is not well explained in any way to new drivers and so, as happened to you, and will ultimately happen to me, we have to ditch our cars and switch to something competitive.  See my previous post, Pax, a critical part of Autocross in North America is reserved to 3 lines in a 30 page novice guide document.

Agreed.  Getting a competitive car for any class can be expensive, and/or a lot of work, or mean that you can't drive your favourite car ever (in my case also an old Corolla)... but it sure makes event day a lot more enjoyable.

[jordan13]

As someone coming to the sport for the first time this season, the draw is that you can bring the car you have. But as everyone seems to find out, after a few events we are hooked and more competitive than expected. I was in the same position as Jeff when I started, slow car with bad pax. It was going to take a lot more money to do something about the slow than the pax, so I spent $300 to get it back to street class. Still not a class leading car by any means, but seems like money well spent to have a 16th place pax last weekend vs what would have been 40th if I'd stayed in Street Touring.
Also to get back to the original theme of this post, I ran a 39.3 4 times in a row following the A line around the final corner, and a 38.6 following the C line on my final lap. No telemetry to back up how much of that time was gained on that corner, but for my car at least C was the fast line.

[MurrayPeterson]

My point is PAX is not well explained in any way to new drivers and so, as happened to you, and will ultimately happen to me, we have to ditch our cars and switch to something competitive.  See my previous post, Pax, a critical part of Autocross in North America is reserved to 3 lines in a 30 page novice guide document.

I think that PAX isn't what needs explaining.  PAX is nothing more than a side effect, and what needs to be understood is preparing a car within the rules.  In other words, don't modify your car until you read the rules and really understand them.  Or if that horse has left the barn door, then read the rules to figure out your best (cheapest) path to being competitive within your chosen class.  Good PAX results just follow from there.

[Reijo]

My point is PAX is not well explained in any way to new drivers and so, as happened to you, and will ultimately happen to me, we have to ditch our cars and switch to something competitive.  See my previous post, Pax, a critical part of Autocross in North America is reserved to 3 lines in a 30 page novice guide document.

I think that PAX isn't what needs explaining.  PAX is nothing more than a side effect, and what needs to be understood is preparing a car within the rules.  In other words, don't modify your car until you read the rules and really understand them.  Or if that horse has left the barn door, then read the rules to figure out your best (cheapest) path to being competitive within your chosen class.  Good PAX results just follow from there.

I'll add SoloPro and any other driving schools to that list of mods.  Might as well work on the loose nut behind the wheel too!   

The driver is a bigger factor than most new people think .... even some veterans I think.   

R